The 8th House Transformation


Transformation is a word astrologers use in association with the 8th house- but what does it mean to transform? What is transformed in relation to the 8th house?

To Transform:

  1. to change in form, appearance, or structure; metamorphose.
  2. to change in condition, nature, or character; convert.
  3. to change into another substance; transmute.

When people transform they experience the change of one form, condition, or substance into another.


1. external appearance of a clearly defined area, as distinguished from color or material;


1. a particular mode of being of a person or thing; existing state; situation with respect to circumstances.


5. the actual matter of a thing, as opposed to the appearance or shadow; reality.
10b. the essential part of a thing; essence.

Transforming one’s essence implies changing who one is at the most fundamental level almost becoming an entirely different being.

The Ruler of the 8th House

The location (by house) of the planet ruling the sign on the cusp of the eighth indicates the realm of experience where transformation will actually BEGIN and the part of the personality (Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter or Saturn) or unconscious (Uranus, Neptune or Pluto) that will be most involved.

~Marc Robertson, Eighth House

  • Aries on the 8th: Follow Mars (Transforming the personality)
  • Taurus on the 8th: Follow Venus (Transforming the personality)
  • Gemini on the 8th: Follow Mercury (Transforming the personality)
  • Cancer on the 8th: Follow the Moon (Transforming the personality)
  • Leo on the 8th: Follow the Sun (Transforming the personality)
  • Virgo on the 8th: Follow Mercury (Transforming the personality)
  • Libra on the 8th: Follow Venus (Transforming the personality)
  • Scorpio on the 8th: Follow Pluto (Transforming the unconscious)
  • Sagittarius on the 8th: Follow Jupiter (Transforming the personality)
  • Capricorn on the 8th? Follow Saturn (Transforming the personality)
  • Aquarius on the 8th: Follow Uranus (Transforming the unconscious)
  • Pisces on the 8th: Follow Neptune (Transforming the unconscious)

More like this ...


  • HeartsJack

    Hi Astrofix, could you help me out picking what planet rules my 8th house? I have the cusp on 28 Scorpio. Is that Pluto or already Jupiter?

    • If your 8th house cusp is 28 Scorpio then Pluto is the modern ruler and Mars is the traditional ruler of your 8th house.

      • HeartsJack

        So there is no gradation?
        Ive read that if a planet is in the last 5 degrees of a house it is taking on qualities of the next house.

        • You are mixing up two different concepts.

          If a planet is 5 degrees from the cusp of the next house (usually using Placidus) some astrologers will consider that planet to be in the next house. If you had the Sun at 26 Scorpio in the 7th house most astrologers would interpret your Sun as being in the 8th house.

          A house cusp that begins in the late degrees of a sign doesn’t move into the next sign and there is not gradation. That being said you might want to look at your chart using more than one house system so you can see how your chart changes accordingly.

          • HeartsJack

            Ok thanks that makes sense. Whole houses put it in the 8th as well, plus it just make sense with my life that Pluto and not Jupiter rules m sex life.

  • Natha

    The cusp of my 8 th house is in aries. I also have moon in taurus in 8 th house opposite scorpio in 2nd house. My mars is in 1st house and my venus is in 12th house. What does that mean?

    • Hi Natha,

      Is your Mars in Virgo?

      • Natha

        Yes, mars in virgo in the 1st house. Also sun in libra in the 1st house, venus in virgo in the 12th house. I think I’m doomed in relationships in general. One of the reasons is probably because I’m very impulsive and critical while speaking sometimes.

        • With your 8th house ruler (Mars) in the 1st house, it’s possible that your greatest transformations will start with your actual physical presence, actually doing, and being involved in the present moment – loving it even, with Venus also in Virgo (and in your 1st house using the whole sign house system).

  • mischa

    is it indicative of anything when one has 3 planets in the 8th? sun 17-49′ taurus, mercury18-36′ taurus, ..&. saturn 12-52′ taurus …. i also have 3 in the 9th house….moon/gem, venus/gem, & mars/gem…..any info would be greatly appreciated since this is all relatively new to me. thanks, ( btw, HAPPY HALLOWEEN!!!)

    • Hi Mischa,

      What sign is on your 8th house cusp? Where is the planet that rules that sign?

  • Mary Ellen

    I stumbled upon this and love the blog.  Great information.  Where do I begin?  My 8th house is loaded.  It’s an intercepted house ruled by Leo, but Mercury 10 Virgo, Uranus conj. Pluto at 15 and 16 and Sun 21.  All opposed by Pisces Saturn (2nd house) at 13.  I have not had any deaths in my family other than aged grandparents, but I have very self centered money hoarding parents that made me not only value money but truly feel that money is happiness.  My Venus at 1 Scorpio (conj Midheaven) opposes my 4th house Moon at 6 Taurus.  Very insecure about money and values.  Luckily I have a grand trine cap ascendant 9, trining Mercury 10 Virgo and Taurus moon.  I also have Jupiter at 29 Gemini Quintiling 10 Virgo.  10th house Mars conj Neptune by one degree in Scorpio 16 and 17.  Lots and lots of Scorpionic tendencies which makes me extremely sensitive to vibrations and spirits — past life regressions, metaphysical stuff and astrology.  I’m in a loveless emotionally distant marriage but was blessed (5th house north node 7 Gemini) with three amazing kids.   My 5th house cusp 28 Taurus trines my 8th house sun 21 Virgo.  I’m very creative.  Wondering if my life might improve after the death of these powerful narcissistic types around me.  I tend to be theatrical and creative outside and quieter when it really comes to me.  I love to help anyone in need and often have my children’s friends here for sleepovers or adventures.  8th house transformations.  I seem to meet people right at the crest of major, major changes in their lives.  

    • Thank you for sharing your experiences Mary Ellen, and thank you for reading. I’m sure I don’t have to say this, but waiting for people to die to start being more creative could take a very long time – only the good die young 😉

      • Mary Ellen Walsh

        absolutely but it has felt like a “death” of sorts with Pluto right on my ascendant (9 Cap.)  It’s been a year of transitions.

  • LB

    Wow, what great comments this post inspired – sorry I missed it the first time around.  There were some really deep and interesting discussions going on! 

    As I was falling asleep last night (or trying to), the thought of my Aries 8th house placements (and SN) ruled by my 9th house retrograde Gemini Mars, kept popping up – immediately followed by a very telling dream-like vision of me verbally berating my mother, angrily trying to get her to understand (and take responsibility for) the role she played in my childhood abuse (natal Mars square 12th house Pluto).  My dad was looming beside her, supporting her in her refusal to acknowledge any wrong-doing.  I’ve long since forgiven her, but the point of the dream wasn’t about *her*, it was about *me* and what my previous methods of communicating my frustrations have come to symbolize.

    It reminded me how bullying, in whatever  form, is never okay – even when it might appear on its face to be justified.  Verbal aggression and other forms of intimidation are harmful and unproductive for me; in terms of my “personality”, learning how and when to speak up has always been one of my challenges.  With retrograde Mars, the other temptation is to remain silent when I shouldn’t; it all has to do with differentiating between what I can control versus what I can’t – a very 8th house theme.  Along with the 8th’s association with transformation, I think it also has to do with the fact that as a child, I frequently adapted/submitted to the “power” of others, without crystalizing or giving a voice to what it was that I valued or wanted.   8th house BM Lilith/Sedna are exactly opposite my 2nd house Sun (as is my SN, though it’s not exact), and the neighborhood I grew up in (Mars/Pluto rules my natal 3rd) combined with my dad’s narcissism kind of sucked the life out of me as a kid – it took a long time to reclaim my spiritual autonomy and figure out the right uses of individual “power”.

    I think my 8th house calls not only for transformation of my personality and awareness through choosing words and actions that are healing, but also for my understanding of the way in which these choices operate within the collective – on conscious and unconscious levels.  With Mars in the 9th, squaring Pluto (in Virgo) in the 12th, there’s  a need to be vigilant in weeding out any hints of hypocrisy while taking practical steps to attain ideals, which means dogma/rhetoric are to be avoided.  With so much in my 8th exactly opposite my 2nd house placements, I’ve had to put my money (literally) where my mouth is through willingly sharing my financial, physical and spiritual resources in a way that empowers, not enables.  With the 8th house ruler tied to the 12th, as you pointed out in one of your comments, I’ve come to accept that there will always be times when all I can do is let go and surrender to forces beyond my control. 

    Very thought-provoking post, Michelle.  I stumbled across it because of a recent comment.  Nice synch. 🙂

  • Liv

    Is a Pluto in the 12th house near the ascendant relevant to the water house discussion?  I also have Sun, Moon and Mercury in my Aquarius 4th house.  Does this suggest I am psychic?

    • How close is Pluto to your ascendant? 

      Personally, I think you would already know if you have psychic tendencies… but, I also think that psychic abilities, like any other ability or skill, can be developed with practice. Some people are naturally better at psychic things just like some people are naturally better at singing or sports. That being said, having the Sun, Moon and Mercury in the 4th house does suggest some deep sensitivity which could translate to psychic perceptions 🙂

  • amoureuse

    mine is transforming personality? i have uranus in t8th house.. this is cool… now uranus is transting my 12th house… i guess my inner personality is ransformed as well… so as my art…i love transformation.. i dont knw why.. but i feel like it allows me to be renewed..

    • Sudden inner awaking with Uranus transiting the 12th.

      • amoureuse

        yaikss! so true… i never thought i could sing but i am now singing.. i never thought i have the guts to put my work in public now i am doing it! hahahhaha i never thought i could even finish a book but now im int he process of rewriting it because the first draft is written in hand. hahhahaha im so weird…

  • I read Jung alot nowadays and my head full of Jungian theories..
    I really want to share and maybe to know your opinion: “Does 4th,8th,12th houses all related to a person inner-most psyche?” Their dream realm, collective unconscious, undoing, shadow, persona, etc?

    Because when I relate dream/unconscious to the other fire, air, earth houses, I thought they are all having task on external, meaning..they represent daylight, daily terms. The only type of houses that can relate to subconscious correctly are those in 12th,4th and 8th!

    I have cool site here:

    What I think:
    4th house represent: Past memories, a river bed that transcend to the sea (subconscious), past life imageries that haven’t erased, fertile-imaginations, raw symbolism, intuition which sometimes can predict future

    8th house: Inner persona, the storage for masks we carry ourselves to outside world (the projection are in 1st house! Both 1st and 8th house are ruled and co-ruled by Mars!), an ideal ego, personal unconscious (hidden character), a hero/ healer.

    12th house= shadow, undoing, monster, ugly part.
    or maybe 12th shadow better be replaced in 8th place? Hmm…

    Anyway, what do you think the watery houses influence in our natal chart?

    • I do tend to equate the water houses with the innermost psyche.

      It’s been a while since I read Jung and Freud, so the exact difference between the subconscious and unconscious isn’t as clear to me as it used to be. 

      I found this great explanation on the interwebs:

      I have a degree in Psychology and wondered about this during my studies. Here’s your answer (I hope).
      Unconscious is the term usually used in Psychology to refer to the thoughts we have that are ‘out of reach’ of our consciousness. A traumatic childhood event that we repress is an example, but it doesn’t have to be so serious as this. It could be something very distant like a memory that we can’t ‘pull out’ at our choosing. It’s there, but we can’t remember it no matter how hard we try. Certain psychoanalytical methods can bring back these memories (such as hypnosis) and can also be triggered by an event (a scent, a familiar place etc).
      The important point to remember here, is that we cannot, by choice, remember anything in our unconscious without some special event or technique. This is the unconscious.
      The sub-conscious is almost the same, but the very major difference is, we *can* choose to remember. Sub-conscious is used far too often (erroneously) to mean unconscious. It’s simply not the case, and you’ll find that in Psychology the topic of the unconscious of *far* more prevalant (and important for study) than that of the sub-conscious. The sub-conscious is for example the part of your mind that let’s you remember your phone number. Before reading this, you were not conscious (thinking right now) of your phone number, but should I ask you for it, you’re able to bring it to the conscious level by pulling it from your sub-conscious. The person who told you your phone number for the first time has perhaps faded from memory. It may still be in there somewhere, but it’s something you can’t remember (maybe), and if so, this is in your unconscious mind. So there you have it.

      Based on that definition, I’m not sure. What I have noticed is that transits and progressions to the 4th house seem to result in a tremendous turning inward. People begin to think about how they really feel about their lives instead of plowing ahead. There’s a stronger need for privacy and a greater tendency toward introspection. 

      The 8th house seems to bring up more emotional turmoil. When planets transit or progress to this house, things that once didn’t bother you suddenly do. Emotions seem to get too close for comfort but it’s almost impossible to detach. Strong feelings are difficult to control, and nice social masks fall off. 

      The 12th seems to be mostly about letting go. There is nothing to control and you kind of just have to go along with whatever happens. It’s like throwing your hands up and saying, “Whatever!”

      • Hi, thanks to explain this to me “Sub-conscious is used far too often (erroneously) to mean unconscious. It’s simply not the case”
        I didn’t know that and I didn’t know you have degree in psychology. That is a second-best degree I like after art 😀
        So, you’re not overly surprise with term like penis envy lol, duh Freud!

        If that the case of sub-cons vs. uncons…then house 4 is for the unconscious while house 8th is for the sub-cons. If my theory prove non existing, then I’ll make graphic novel about it instead. Lol ^^

        Glad to know your practical view of watery houses, especially the 8th..I will have Saturn return around there^^ Nice mask will fall off!

        • Oh, lol, I don’t have a degree in psych – that’s a quote from the web. Although, I have been thinking of going back to school to get one.

  • Adan6

    I have the Sun (Leo 1º), Mercury (Cancer 29º), Venus (Cancer 4º) and the North Node (Cancer, 14º) in the 8th house. I had an absent father during all my childhood (sun in the 8) and he was suffering from mental illness. He is also Scorpio.

    I really think that it’s a transformation house. I’m very intense emotionally, but the same intensity make itself transform and discover new ways of being. It sounds a bit strange, but through the emotional intensity, you can reach moments of very profond peace.

    • What is your ascendant Adan6?

      • Adan6

        Saggitarus (7º) 🙂

        • Adan6

          in conjuction with Uranus (Saggitarius, 2º) in twelfth house

          • Is your Sun in aspect to Neptune?

            • Adan6

              Nops, but I have Neptune (24º saggitarius) sextile Pluto/Mars (24º libra) and Neptuno opposition Venus

              Important Aspects I have:

              My sun (1º leo) conjuction Mercury (29º cancer) and trine with Uranus (Sag, 2º)and Ascendant (7º)

              Sun/Mercury in the 8th hosuse square with pluto/mars (24º libra) in the 11th house

              Sun/Mercury square Jupiter (2º Scorpio) in the 11th house

              Venus (3º cancer) trine Jupiter (2º scorpio)

              Venus trine Pluto/Mars

              Venus conjunct north node

              In the houses:

              Sun, mercury,north node and venus in the 8th house

              Moon in Virgo (10º) in the 9th house

              Saturn in libra (15º) in the 10th house

              Pluto and Mars in the cuspid of the 11th house

              Jupiter in 11th house

              Uranus retrograde conjunct my ascendant in the 12th house

              Neptune retrograde in my 1st house

              • Freeform_26

                I have Sun in 8th house under Leo and always had detached relations with father figures in my life. Grandfathers on both side deceased by the time I was born, my biological father murdered by the time i was 4 yrs old and my step father who was an alcoholic died from cancer when I was 30. Strangely I never tied the aspects together till this blog. Thank you and blessings. 

                • Michelle

                  Thank you for reading, Freeform_26.

              • Ok, because you’re cute then I give you free reading:

                Why are you intensely profound and self-sufficient? If that is the question..?


                Sun&Mercury in Cancer and also in 8th house. Cancer is a “mute” sign, they aren’t as articulate as Gemini for sample. I guess speaking is not your favorite thing to do, but with Sun&Mercury in 8th you have a push to explain yourselves and usually it does best with heart to heart conversation.

                Uranus in 12th? are a boisterous rebel at heart. If you can’t conceal yourself it’ll become frustation..just like a kid with ADD has to deal with straight jacket. You need an outlet to express your creativity or merely just venting your frustation.

                Sun/Mercury square Mars/Pluto: Your inner self in 8th suspicious and quarelsome to community. Fight usually occur between same-sex, jealousy, bitchiness, maybe you’re a short temper, maybe they’re jealous with your presence between them? You might feel unheard/outcasted in friendship because you think..those people are superficial and petty. You need to understand them better for your career-relation sake.
                Mars in libra is weak, yet you hate how you handle everything in status quo.

                Good thing you have many aspects to ease your bizzare squares up there..
                Venus trine Mars/Pluto= Dude, your guy friends actually like you. You also have mediator ability.

                Venus in 3rd degree Cancer trine Jupiter in Scorpio is your sex appeal, nuff said..and money too!

                Venus oppose Neptune= Not good for relationship, your escapism tendency and your battle with north node.

                Neptune in 1st sextile Pluto/Mars trouble makers= Your neptune is part of your persona, it also close to your South Node I bet (because it oppose your N.Node venus)
                I thought you are short tempered with probing Sun&Mercury in 8th but actually you could appear mild mannered or even whimsical. There is a hippie side of you. Philosophy and religion got your interest.
                You are not loud but not completely invisible. You’re like a lion wearing dark sunglasses to cover eye contacts but indeed people still recognize you to have strong presence. You either introvert or extrovert with trusted circle.

                Your quest of life to understand the meaning of beauty, skin deep (North node-venus). There is confrontation of Sun-mercury (mind) over how 11th house community (group of people) treats you. 

                House 11 play significant part in your life, as well Pluto-Mars. I really glad that you have Pluto-Mars conjunction in Libra, if they’re in difficult sign like Virgo/Scorpio or in difficult house like 12th/4th
                then you’re dead.

                Your Asc directly square my Sun, so you might hate my reading here…which I dont care because you’re cute :p

                Your Mars conj my Venus too, no wonder…

  • joy

    I really loved reading Michelle and Gracehopper’s comments back and forth. Especially the, “Sorry I’m babbling, Jupiter is sextiling my mercury.” and then “No problem, Neptune/Chiron is sextiling my natal Mercury/Chiron- I feel like I’m not making any sense.” wouldn’t it be awesome if everyone talked to each other like that? I love it. And I’m glad I went to Astrodispatch this morning and read your post. … also, I’m going to email you my information because I’d like to ask you some questions if you have time to answer them.

  • joy

    I really loved reading Michelle and Gracehopper’s comments back and forth. Especially the, “Sorry I’m babbling, Jupiter is sextiling my mercury.” and then “No problem, Neptune/Chiron is sextiling my natal Mercury/Chiron- I feel like I’m not making any sense.” wouldn’t it be awesome if everyone talked to each other like that? I love it. And I’m glad I went to Astrodispatch this morning and read your post. … also, I’m going to email you my information because I’d like to ask you some questions if you have time to answer them.

    • I’m glad you were amused! I received your information but I may not be able to get to it until next week.

  • Tara

    Thanks Michelle. Any thoughts you have would be much appreciated. My birthday is 12/6/54 at 7:44 AM in Santa Monica, CA.

  • Tara

    Hi Michele, Would you have time to do a reading for me? Mars will be going direct on my 8th house cusp, which is at 0 degrees Leo. Natal Pluto is also in the 8th. I am wondering how this may reshape my personality as you say above. I am in the process of a huge transformation as I am starting my own spiritual consulting business, but I am resenting it at the same time because of all the time it will require. Maybe I just need to get better organized, but I was a little disturbed to see that picture you assigned to Sagittarius in the 12th, where mine falls, as I wonder if sometimes I am sacrificing too much of my time for this spiritual stuff! Thanks.

    • Hi Tara,

      I’d be happy to take a look. Can you provide your birth info? If you don’t want to make it public, you can email it to me at


  • Anonymous

    I’m sorry to say that I’ve never cared for this modern interpretation of the 8th house. The 8th house has such a significant place in the writings of the ancients. In my predictive work and also in my natal work, I do acknowledge the possibility of transformation but you can find that in any house I think… for me I stick to the idea of the 8th house representing that which cannot be owned, i.e. the antithesis of the 2nd which represents everything upon which we can attach a value. Also, in predictive work, the primary anareta of a natus coming into contact with the 8th house cusp is an indicator of mortality (not necessarily death, one needs more than one indicator, plus an apheta forming a positive aspect with rulers of the 8th or 6th or planets within the 8th or 6th can mollify this quite a bit.)

    No disrespect intended, but I believe the 8th house=transformation idea came into popularity in the 20th century when various astrologers began to promote a 12=12=12 model of astrology which had never existed before, i.e. Aries=House 1=Mars, which is a good memorization tool but strips away so much of the insight of the classicists, in my opinion.

    My personal experience of the 8th house, with Aquarius on the cusp and Jupiter inside, disposited by an exact Saturn-Uranus trine in the 12th and 4th houses, is that the Jupiter in the 8th has often meant “sudden unexpected money” – It represents the funds which you cannot control yourself, but with Jupiter in the house, those funds have a way of tending to support me anyway. Especially when I’m *just* about to be screwed. Then suddenly this windfall appears, pulling me off my knees and putting me back into the race. This often happens to me with things that I really need, but totally cannot in any way afford, too. (I’m a poor guy, in case you can’t tell. Having no ambition doesn’t help.) I’ve read, but of course have absolutely no way to test, that Jupiter in the 8th tends to create long-lived people who die peacefully. Which would fit with the Death part of the 8th house. But since I’m kind of an empirical guy I just store that info in my mental filing cabinet and move on. Anyway, just adding my bit– I’m fascinated by this house since I have Jupiter there. It’s not considered a good placement for Jupiter, and Aquarius is not a good place for Jupiter either– the planet is peregrine in the entire sign. But I like both placements. They fit my lifestyle well.

    • No disrespect taken. I’m not saying that I absolutely believe in transformation as an 8th house concept- I want to explore it. I plan on exploring most of the 8th house concepts (death, debt, deep emotional interactions), not just “transformation.” I actually chose this one first because it is so vague. It’s so vague in fact, that I have trouble believing it. I’m also not entirely sold on the idea of “death” as an 8th house concept either. This past week I realized how many people I know who lost a parent at an early age- and you know what? none of them have an 8th house emphasis. Also, 8 out of the 9 members of my tarot group were kind enough to give me their birth info- and they all have a 9th house/12th house emphasis- with almost no 8th house at all. So, this is more of an exploration than anything else. I hope to get more feedback from readers.

      • Anonymous

        I’m excited to hear that this is just the beginning of an exploration– I really adore your blog. One quibble about death of the parents and the 8th house: those wouldn’t have anything to do with each other. Death of the parents should be the 8th from the 4th or the 8th from the 10th depending on which parent and the sect of the chart. It’s only the death of the “owner” of the natus himself which should be divined from the 8th house of his chart. My chart’s a pretty good example of this: 8th from the 4th of the mother is the 12th, where I have Saturn in Gemini, and my mother committed suicide, a very Saturn in the 12th kind of event… 8th from the 10th of my father is the 6th, and I have Neptune on the cusp of my 6th…. Ive never met my father, very Neptunian. Anyway! Looking forward to reading more!

        Oh! I almost forgot. The association the 8th house has with death springs from a much more ancient house system called the Oktotopos (as opposed to the Dodekatopos) which divided the houses into 8. The 8th house was the last one, and therefore the obvious candidate for death. Even after the Graeco-Egyptians synthesized the two differing house systems together into one, the 8th house retained its reputation as a “Bad Place.”

        • That makes sense. I just wonder about the Moon in the 8th showing the death of the mother, or the Sun in the 8th showing the death of the father.

          I’ve read mixed things about using house derivations for anything but horary. I think it’s Robert Hand who mentions that money came to be equated with the 8th because it is the 2nd from the 7th- the results of marriage, and that he’s not entirely sure about that association.

          Many astrologers talk about the 8th house person experiencing a lot of death- obviously not their own, because they can only die once. I want to address this in a different post, but, some astrologers also equate the 2nd with the actual physical body. If the 2nd is my body, then the 8th is your body. The 2nd is what I have, the 8th is what you have. Thinking of it this way, it’s easy to see how the 8th can be associated with sex- beyond the Scorpio connection. Also, in the olden days, the result of marriage was that one had sex. Though, that’s confusing to me, because the real result of marriage was usually children. Also, I think it’s Robert Hand, again, who says that the 2nd can’t be the body because we cannot possess ourselves, but then I think, well, what about the word “self-possessed’?

          I have noticed that many people with the Sun in the 12th (especially the Pisces Sun) don’t know their fathers very well, or at all. I haven’t noticed the same thing with the Moon in the 12th.

          • Anonymous

            I don’t take as a matter of course the Sun to be the father and the Moon to be the mother. For example in my chart, the Moon is definitely, for sure, ME. lol. And Venus is my mother, Venus in Taurus (she was an artist and decorator and gardener with perfect taste, and a dear friend–11th house) She hanged herself when some rather horrible transits transpired and I have Venus on Algol Star, the fixed star associated for thousands of years with death by hanging. And my father, a man I never met, he could easily be represented by my illusive Pisces MC with its Neptune dispositor. But my sun in Taurus in the 11th? No, he’s no friend of mine. Clearly he’s not represented by the Sun.

            I think often Saturn and Venus can be father and mother, or else the rulers of the 10th and 4th houses. It depends on the self-will of the native– are they a “lunar” person who powerfully owns their emotions, do they have a powerfully Venusian influence in their lives, do they have major Solar energies going on etc? If not, then maybe things will default to Moon and Sun, or that is the default position. Like, I’ve been doing some minor readings for a friend of mine with a new baby and the baby has moon and sun square and it’s pretty easy to see the poor dear will probably grow up seeing her parents clashing quite a bit. But In the end, her father isn’t really a solar sort, and the little baby has a pretty solar chart herself, so there’s no reason her daddy needs to be the recipient of that particular energy later on, know what I mean?

            • Anonymous

              Sorry I’m babbling, Jupiter is sextiling my mercury.

              • No problem, Neptune/Chiron is sextiling my natal Mercury/Chiron- I feel like I’m not making any sense.

                • Anonymous

                  You’re making perfect sense, and Neptune/Chiron is activating your ability to teach others about information about the higher realm. 🙂 I just wish others would jump in, I feel like I’m hogging all the comment space but then I remember it’s infinite.

            • I think that Venus can represent the mother in addition to the Moon, but I think that, as you said, the Moon is the default. I definitely see my Moon as my mother. My Moon is in Leo in the 11th square Uranus in Scorpio, and my mother’s Sun-Uranus conjunction in Leo actually conjuncts my Moon, and her Moon is in Scorpio. I count my mother as one of my best friends. She makes me laugh so hard. That being said, my Moon is in close trine to Venus in Aries, and in her natal chart, my mom has a Mars-Pluto-Venus conjunction while I have a loose Mars-Pluto-Venus T-square.

              I usually do look to both Mars and Saturn, and even Pluto, as well as the Sun to get more info about the father.

              I’m really sorry to hear about your mother gracehoper.

              • Anonymous

                It’s a “Family Tradition.”

                • I like breaking traditions…Moon square Uranus 😉

          • Hi. I’m following this conversation with interest because I have most of the placements you two are discussing:

            3 planets in the 8th house, including Sun and Jupiter (I’m very sensitive about being in debt. I try to stay away from that as much as possible. Yes! to the sudden, unexpected money when I REALLY need it. And in large sums, too. My last windfall came from literally falling down in a theater and my father was my attorney. He got me a very large settlement with ease – way more than I expected.)

            A 9th and 12th house emphasis. My 8th, 9th and 12th houses are connected by planets and house rulers. I haven’t really experienced many people literally dying, BUT I am the catalyst for transforming people through my relationships with them (the ruler of my 7th house is also in my 8th). I always get people telling me that they underwent some dramatic lifestyle, personality or attitude change as a result of knowing/meeting me – even when our contact was brief. I don’t (consciously) try to change them; I think they change through trying to change me.

            The ruler of my 4th house is in the 8th house, the Moon rules my 8th house, and my Moon is in the 12th house. My mom is still alive and well. In fact, relatives on both sides of my family usually live a very long time, which is why I haven’t experienced many deaths of loved ones. Both of my grandfathers died when I was a child but I wasn’t very close to them. Their deaths WERE a transformation for the family, though. The trouble they caused in life died with them; it was almost like their deaths unpacked the emotional baggage of the rest of the family. I’ve had quite a few near-death experiences. I’m always saved somehow…due to my quick thinking (Mercury aspects Mars and Jupiter) or others helping me or someTHING stepping in: several major car accidents, 2 near-drownings, big earthquakes, emergency plane landings, etc.

            I have Moon in the 12th but my Sun & Mars aspect my Saturn in the 9th. I know my father pretty well, even though we’ve lived far apart for most of my life. We connect through law (he’s a lawyer), politics, education and religion – typical 9th house stuff. He adopts the teacher role and resists learning anything from me, but later he will come back repeating something I told him…as his own idea. Smh.

            I’m just one example but hopefully that answers some of your questions.

            Great blog! It’s now one of my favorites.

            • I like the concept of 8th house planets being catalysts for change.

              My grandmother died tragically before I was born. Her death had a big impact on my dad’s family. If I use the equal house system, my Moon is in the 12th house.

              That is all very interesting. Thank you for sharing it.

              • Thanks for making it easy to share 🙂

                Are 8th house planets catalysts for change within us or within others? Perhaps both?

                I’m sorry about your grandmother. Did you feel her presence even though she passed before you were born? I’ve read that the 4th house rules grandmothers. Is the 4th house emphasized in your chart?

                About these different house systems…how do we know which one to use? Does the description of a 12th house Moon describe you?

                • I have Neptune in my 4th house. Neptune forms the closest major aspect to my Sun in the 8th.

                  As far as house systems go everyone has their own take. I’m still exploring to see which I like. Sometimes, in the case of charts with a lot of interception, I do like to check out the Equal house system. Also, for someone with so many planets on cusps (like me) it’s interesting to see how the chart changes using different systems.

                  I can relate to a 12th house Moon. I thoroughly enjoy spending time alone.

            • Freeform_26

              This is hilarious astrology humor 
                 ”  He adopts the teacher role and resists learning anything from me, but later he will come back repeating something I told him…as his own idea. Smh.”
              That sounds typical of a Taurus operating from their lower vibrations.. I have dealt first hands with many Taurus friends and learned how to work with that trait of theirs. I end up feeling as if Im in the movie Inception implanting ideas in their heads and them coming away with this complete subjective revaluation. It’s great to how we all have our astrological corks.. mad love! 

      • Nikhil

        Hey Michelle!

        First of all, congrats on running such a wonderful blog! I thoroughly enjoy reading all your artilcles in here and for a novice like me this is just what the doctor ordered.

        Coming to the point, which is death as an 8th house concept, i think i would vouch for it. I have two planets in my SAG 8th house – saturn and uranus – tightly opposing my second house gemini sun. I lost my father when i was 15.


        • I’m sorry about your Dad Nikhil. Where is Jupiter, the ruler of your 8th house?

      • Anonymous

        Definitely all kinds of death as in ‘loss’ associated with 8th House, depending upon placements this varies as to what it actually means. More appropriate is the word ‘House of Loss’ rather than ‘House of Death’. Although, the losses can feel so emotionally tearing that it seems like a death grievance.

        • Do you have planets in the 8th house?