Using Whole Signs, and the Moon Switching Houses

balancing a bubble on handI attended the lecture First Steps in Traditional Astrology with Demetra George at the Northwest Astrological Conference (NORWAC) last week. Demetra addressed using the whole sign house system and I think I may convert. The whole sign house system sets every house cusp at 00 degrees starting with the sign of your Ascendant. Although I’ve tried the whole sign method before, I consistently used Placidus anyway.

3 excellent reasons to use whole signs

  • You no longer have to deal with interception
  • You don’t have the complication of planets on cusps
  • Planets and signs are decidedly in one house

I am going to use the whole sign system for now. I still have to check out how using whole signs affects my progressed chart and transits.

NORWAC Experience: A 12th house Moon in an 11th house Moon world

When I first learned that I had the Sun in the 8th house and the Moon in the 11th house I thought, of my Sun, “Well, that makes sense.” When it came to my Moon however, I remember thinking, “I’m surprised it isn’t in the 12th house.” Using whole signs, my Moon is in the 12th house.

The dream

It was difficult for me to connect with people at NORWAC, but I had been forewarned by a dream:

There are chessboards set up in a place that seems like a bar. Astrologers are gathered in twos and threes around the chess tables. I want to join them, but they maneuver to let me know that I am not welcome.


I spent the first two days feeling lonely. Moon conjunct Saturn in the 11th house: feeling alone in the crowd. In a keynote lecture Jeff Jawer stated the need to “Set and follow intentions.” After he said that I became alert to my original intention for going to NORWAC: to learn, and to bring information back for my blog- not to become best friends with everyone. It would have been nice to become best friends with everyone, but that’s not why I went. Once I simply accepted that I wasn’t fitting into any groups (Saturn in the 11th) I became entirely comfortable being by myself (Moon in the 12th). I set up my laptop, put on my big headphones, went into my own world, and sent out a barrage of tweets on the remaining lectures- that’s what I should have been doing the whole time I was there.

Ironically, the moment I stopped caring, was the moment people began speaking to me.

The more I try to move outside myself and be gregarious or outgoing, the more I fail.

Some people are capable of  successful “outreach” but I don’t seem to be one of them.

Moon in the 11th or Moon in the 12th?

How does a Moon conjunct Saturn in the 11th house differ from a Moon conjunct Saturn over the 11-12 cusp? If the Moon in its distilled essence shows what makes us happy, I have to ask myself, “Am I happier with a group of people or am I happier by myself?”

Points for and against an 11th house Moon

  • I’m not a joiner and never have been
  • I don’t belong to a single organization or group (except my tarot group which I may be leaving soon)
  • I don’t join or champion any causes
  • I try only so hard to fit in and make connections with people, then I go do my own thing
  • I used to get pissed-off when teachers would ask us to “break up into groups” for projects in school
  • My mother and I are friends

This all seems emphatically Saturn in the 11th house, and not Moon in the 11th house- except that I am friends with my mother.

Points for and against a 12th house Moon

  • I like working by myself
  • I like working behind the scenes
  • Jobs, like customer service, where I have to interact with a lot of people all day long, completely upset my equilibrium
  • Sometimes I dread having to talk to people face to face
  • I like internet groups like Twitter and Facebook because I can remain hidden while socializing
  • I’ve been keeping a dream journal since 1999
  • I’m fascinated by past lives

If I use whole signs, my 11th house ruler (the Moon) is in the 12th house which supports wanting to be in groups where I can remain hidden.

When I try to embrace the concept of the 11th house Moon I feel like I am reaching outside of myself, squinting my eyes, straining, and trying to make it fit. With the 12th house Moon, I feel more relaxed and more me. I think, if I really had an 11th house Moon, I’d want to be more outgoing, even with the Saturn conjunction- but I don’t. No amount of people saying, “You need to break out of your shell!” actually makes me want to break out of my shell.

Other planets that switch in my chart using the whole sign method

  • Venus  from 7 —-> 8
  • Mars from 10 —->11
  • Jupiter from 8 —-> 9
  • Juno from 12 —-> 1

I could stay with Placidus because it’s comfortable, but I want an understanding of my chart that feels right. Demetra George said that she, “Went through an identity crisis when she switched house systems.” That’s how I feel!

One reason why I’ve been resistant to embrace a 12th house Moon is that I am aware of the tendency of astrologers to pick and choose their astrology to make themselves appear in the best light. It seems to me, in forums and around the web, that people often want to push their planets into aspects, configurations and houses that make them appear smarter, sexier, more mysterious or psychic than they really are. I want to be careful about not allowing myself to fall into this vanity trap. The clincher about the whole signs method is that, using it, my brother and I both have an 8th house Sun and 12th house Moon.

To view your chart using the whole sign method

Go to astro.com, Free Horoscopes, Extended Chart Selection and then select “whole signs” from the House Systems drop-down box.

  • How does your chart change?
  • Which planets change houses?
  • How do you feel about those changes?

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90 Responses to “Using Whole Signs, and the Moon Switching Houses”

  1. jotracey says:

    This great stuff. I have often felt the same way about my 12th house Mercury (which sometimes seems more 1st house) & my 8th house Mars who really gets off on travelling the world. As for Saturn I would be super pleased to push him into the 2nd… to a degree. In the whole sign system Saturn would move onto the cuspof the 2nd (0 aries), Mercury at 6Pisc would move to the 1st & Mars at 3 Scorp would become a 9th house mars. Food for thought indeed.

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  2. Michelle says:

    Yes, it's definitely something to give serious consideration to. I've been thinking about it non-stop since last weekend. I would imagine a 1st house Mercury to be very chatty and talkative, lots of hand gesturing and such, and a 12th house Mercury? Not so much!

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  3. jotracey says:

    Exactly! I can sell coal to Newcastle when I get going & the hands always get a workout.I have problems with “me” stuff, but that is the Pisces Merc & of course it is Rx… anyways all good food for thought. Thanks again.

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  4. C3029052 says:

    Wow, something to think about. Great stuff Michelle, glad you enjoyed the conference.
    My whole chart is different now…Pushed my Mars and Saturn into 7th house. Always felt that way in regards to 7th house stuff..interesting :-)

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  5. GJ says:

    Thoughtful observation. Thanks for sharing.

    By the way, is anyone else annoyed by the “facebook share buzz” widget. When I go to this site it appears on the left side of the screen and gets in the way of everything I want to read. I have to scroll carefully and can only read a slice at a time. So annoying I want to leave, but I really don't want to leave because I like this site, the subjects and the posts.

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  6. Michelle says:

    GJ, what browser are you using? I can try to push Share/Buzz further to the left so it doesn't interfere. I'm so glad you told me!

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  7. Michelle says:

    It is interesting isn't it? I think it takes some getting used to, but I seem to be getting used to it rather quickly. It makes sense!

    Thanks for reading :D

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  8. Christine Truong says:

    I think my mind is so fixed on the placements I have in Placidius, that I feel slightly uncomfortable with using whole signs. Most of my planets are at the end of houses, so — my Moon would be in the 11th. Chiron-Jupiter conjunction would be in the 10th. Pluto would be in the middle of the 2nd house. Sun+Mercury in the 8th, Neptune/Uranus/Saturn in the 4th, and Mars + Venus in the 6th, with Venus conjunct the descendant.

    While we're on the subject of 11th or 12th house Moons, I definitely feel like my Moon should remain in the 10th. I don't like working with groups. I value “the individual” over “the collective.” I've once said that I don't like organized-anything. I don't like organized-religion, I don't like the idea of nationality. It irks me to think of my peers getting caught up in one political group.

    I just feel like I've identified with the house placements I have in the Placidius system so well, that I'd have a hard time thinking of myself in whole-sign terms. :P

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  9. Michelle says:

    Where does your MC fall using whole signs?

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  10. Michelle says:

    I meant which house- I'm guessing still the 10th house. Believe or not I was thinking about your chart while writing this and wondering what you would think.

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  11. Chris says:

    Omg I can really relate to your post. I also have moon in the 11th (whole sign or not). I have Saturn in the 12th and spend a lot of time alone. I recently switched from placidus to whole signs for natal, but found that although the whole sign works the best, the placidus is valid and should also be considered. The constellations are uneven and seep into one another, and I think the houses tend to do that too. Btw, my moon is at 6 degrees Capricorn (hello Pluto) and I have recently had the urge to join groups even though I feel a bit uncomfortable in them!

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  12. Michelle says:

    I agree. I'm not completely rejecting Placidus, but….I just went through about 10 charts of people I know to see how the charts change, and it's quite interesting. Whole signs seems to reflect people as they are more accurately. Placidus seems to confirm my personal ideas about people which may or may not have anything to do with who the person really is- that's an early observation, subject to change ;D

    The 11th house Moon thing gets tricky for me as well because my natal Moon at 2 Leo squares Uranus at 6 Scorpio- so there's at least some of the 11th house flavor to it.

    The constellations are uneven. I sometimes think about what Jamie Funk does over at Funkastrology- he just ignores the signs altogether. There's something to be said for that method.

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  13. Michelle says:

    I meant which house- I'm guessing still the 10th house. Believe or not I was thinking about your chart while writing this and wondering what you would think.

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  14. Chris says:

    Omg I can really relate to your post. I also have moon in the 11th (whole sign or not). I have Saturn in the 12th and spend a lot of time alone. I recently switched from placidus to whole signs for natal, but found that although the whole sign works the best, the placidus is valid and should also be considered. The constellations are uneven and seep into one another, and I think the houses tend to do that too. Btw, my moon is at 6 degrees Capricorn (hello Pluto) and I have recently had the urge to join groups even though I feel a bit uncomfortable in them!

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  15. Michelle says:

    I agree. I'm not completely rejecting Placidus, but….I just went through about 10 charts of people I know to see how the charts change, and it's quite interesting. Whole signs seems to reflect people as they are more accurately. Placidus seems to confirm my personal ideas about people which may or may not have anything to do with who the person really is- that's an early observation, subject to change ;D

    The 11th house Moon thing gets tricky for me as well because my natal Moon at 2 Leo squares Uranus at 6 Scorpio- so there's at least some of the 11th house flavor to it.

    The constellations are uneven. I sometimes think about what Jamie Funk does over at Funkastrology- he just ignores the signs altogether. There's something to be said for that method.

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  16. firetiger13 says:

    Michelle! whole signs!! im glad to see this that's all .. i love your blog

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  17. Erika says:

    I had a similar experience with the changing of the systems: When I first got into natal astrology, in high school, I didn’t know anything about house systems so I automatically used whole signs without even knowing what that meant. A few years later, with the help of astro.com, I saw my chart in Placidus and I thought that maybe I was just using the beginner, unsophisticated method because I knew nothing about degrees and such and this astrology site had to be right. The funny thing about it was my chart no longer made sense to me and when I added Chiron and the major asteroids to it (which was all new to me at the time too), it made even less sense. I didn’t even like to read the descriptions of Juno in the 4th house or Vesta and Chiron in the 3rd for example because it didn’t sound like me at all so I left it out. I was actually beginning to doubt things. Then a few years later, I went on a message board and requested help reading my chart and the site admin stated that she uses the equal house method and she told me why and sent links for explanations. She also recommended that I re-post my chart and how to do it. When I saw my chart in equal house, I can’t describe it, it felt right, it clicked. I am even more into astrology because of this! The asteroid and Chiron descriptions were now spot on, Saturn, NN and Lilith moved from the 7th to the 8th, Pluto moved from 8th to 9th, Uranus from 9th to 10th…In equal house my chart is extremely close to being in whole signs because my ascendant is at 1 degree Aquarius so I consider both to be “right” for me.

    However, I have since found that it is important to find astrologers that work with your preference or similar. I got a reading with someone who uses Placidus and I asked if she would use equal house for me and she told me that I probably prefer equal house because I have Saturn in Virgo and want things to look perfect. Umm, no. It was actually more about a feeling than a look with me. I hate it when people use placements against you.

    So (the moral of this long story is) I say stick with what feels right.

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    • meow says:

      hmmm..interesting. This post got me thinking. I have a friend who is a Gemini Sun with Cancer Rising, so both in Placidus and Whole Sign she has her sun, Mercury and Venus in the 12th house.
      She already has Mars conjunct her MC, but whole sign moves her Mars from the 9th to the 10th, and her Moon from 8th to 9th…this is interesting, because although I was supposed to be the one with Moon, Mars, Jupiter in the 9th, I was never as driven to “experience” as much  as possible as she was.
      Her needs(Moon) to me seem to act out a lot better through 9th house areas than 8th house, since, although she is quite flirty and has had several long-term relationships(also has Venus conjunct Mercury, loosely conjunct AC, and Pluto in the 5th, regardless of house system) her main compulsive drives are towards “living life” as she put it, and she travels with every chance she gets, which is so unlike me, really. She really seems to have no problems with just picking up and wandering off to wherever.

      Although I like the “idea” of travelling, I also feel weary about the more “technical” details of it. And in terms of travelling, I am really rarely interested in the people and culture of a place, and much more interested in nature, or the possibility to just relax.

      Her Moon is in Aquarius, square Pluto. My Moon is in Gemini, tightly conjunct Mars and Jupiter, and square Mercury.

      On another note, I think maybe a lot of this confusion about houses has to do with people forgetting what houses are all about.
      Houses show “where” stuff happens. So, for instance, Mercury in the 6th would mean your mental abilities are naturally going to be put to use to acquire specialized skills in some area, usually revolving health or anything routine-like.
      Mercury in the 1st, for instance, means your mind naturally gravitates to the issues of identity, self-assertion, self-expression and stuff.

      But still..this does not clarify things for me. I mean, in my chart. I still can’t figure it out.

      Oh, wait, I can..Neptune in the 5th would mean your imagination and intuition would naturally gravitate towards dramatic expression, but I’m not feeling that.
      In Placidus, Neptune falls in my 4th which makes more sense, for reasons showed above..so, again, just don’t know. I say we try to get by without using houses. lol

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      • meow says:

        on the other hand, transiting Neptune squaring my natal Moon, Mars, Jupiter, and also progressed Moon in Pisces might make me feel more like Neptune in the 4th? very confusing.

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        • Michelle says:

          It is confusing, but I think you’re on the right track when you start looking at the “reality” of  the placements. If you had 3 planets in the 9th house, you would be more inclined to want to travel and experience life like your friend is. 

          One thing that I’ve found helpful is to go back and think about things that people have said to me about my personality. It can be hard to be clear about yourself, so outside viewpoints can give clarity.Houses are where experiences happen.

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      • meow says:

        on the other hand, transiting Neptune squaring my natal Moon, Mars, Jupiter, and also progressed Moon in Pisces might make me feel more like Neptune in the 4th? very confusing.

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    • meow says:

      hmmm..interesting. This post got me thinking. I have a friend who is a Gemini Sun with Cancer Rising, so both in Placidus and Whole Sign she has her sun, Mercury and Venus in the 12th house.
      She already has Mars conjunct her MC, but whole sign moves her Mars from the 9th to the 10th, and her Moon from 8th to 9th…this is interesting, because although I was supposed to be the one with Moon, Mars, Jupiter in the 9th, I was never as driven to “experience” as much  as possible as she was.
      Her needs(Moon) to me seem to act out a lot better through 9th house areas than 8th house, since, although she is quite flirty and has had several long-term relationships(also has Venus conjunct Mercury, loosely conjunct AC, and Pluto in the 5th, regardless of house system) her main compulsive drives are towards “living life” as she put it, and she travels with every chance she gets, which is so unlike me, really. She really seems to have no problems with just picking up and wandering off to wherever.

      Although I like the “idea” of travelling, I also feel weary about the more “technical” details of it. And in terms of travelling, I am really rarely interested in the people and culture of a place, and much more interested in nature, or the possibility to just relax.

      Her Moon is in Aquarius, square Pluto. My Moon is in Gemini, tightly conjunct Mars and Jupiter, and square Mercury.

      On another note, I think maybe a lot of this confusion about houses has to do with people forgetting what houses are all about.
      Houses show “where” stuff happens. So, for instance, Mercury in the 6th would mean your mental abilities are naturally going to be put to use to acquire specialized skills in some area, usually revolving health or anything routine-like.
      Mercury in the 1st, for instance, means your mind naturally gravitates to the issues of identity, self-assertion, self-expression and stuff.

      But still..this does not clarify things for me. I mean, in my chart. I still can’t figure it out.

      Oh, wait, I can..Neptune in the 5th would mean your imagination and intuition would naturally gravitate towards dramatic expression, but I’m not feeling that.
      In Placidus, Neptune falls in my 4th which makes more sense, for reasons showed above..so, again, just don’t know. I say we try to get by without using houses. lol

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  18. Michelle says:

    Thanks Erika!

    I tried equal house too but it didn't seem quite right to me. It makes sense that it would fit for you with your Asc. so close to the 00 degree.

    I find that switching house systems is working for me- especially as I look through all the charts of people I know. A good example is a friend of mine who has a stellium in Sag in the 12th, according to Placidus. I always wondered about it. Her personality is that she's just right there, she doesn't hold back. She's loud, blunt and funny- there's nothing 12th house about her. With whole signs, her entire stellium moves to the 1st, and everything becomes clear.

    And yes about the asteroids too! I've always had issues with the Juno in the 12th description. The 1st house description is much better: my boyfriends always want to introduce me to their parents- on the 1st or 2nd date! They always seem to see me as possible “marriage material”- without bothering to ask how I feel about marriage ;)

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  19. firetiger13 says:

    oops i meant to hit reply
    although i do like that comment haha
    what i found with whole signs is that is a more physical manifestation.. placidus may be a more internal digestion of the chart
    i will tell u how i figured this out for myself
    first of all when i see that my sun is in the 11th house i can't relate.. sure i love my friends but i actually cannot identify with institutions of any kind and most things that involve group projects.. well, it's not for me. second of all mars is in the 3rd house in placidus.. that's actually a lovely placement.. i would love that if i felt it was right….. mars in the 4th is not so lovely but it does accurately depict my family life.. my home life is very argumentative and violent… i think of home and i think of a lot of fights.. it's not sexy, but it fits. lastly the moon in the 8th really did it for me….. again.. moon in the 7th is a bit nicer, but to be honest the issues of the 8th house resonate more with me.. not because of my scorpio placements (which i could easily chalk that up to) but moreso because of my mother… her attempted suicides..that confrontation with death.. the fact that she is the main financial provider in my life.. etc.

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  20. Michelle says:

    Moon in the 8th does make more sense. That's kind of how I feel about my Venus moving from the 7th to the 8th.

    Can you explain “internal manifestation” more?

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  21. Christine Truong says:

    No, I think everything about me screams Leo in the 10th — down to the mommy issues. Using the whole-house system, my North Node would fall in the fifth house — which I feel is more fitting. But, I don't know if that's because it's just more comfortable for me because in either house system, I have Leo Moon conjunct Leo SN. Idk.

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  22. Michelle says:

    Having the South Node conjunct your Moon does make it more confusing. NN in the 5th does seem like a better fit, but that might just be because it's more comfortable, like you said.

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  23. cjwright says:

    I am so glad to read this! I've been playing with the whole sign houses recently and am thinking that I might abandon Placidus world. Your experience certainly gives me a boost toward that.

    Another thing that I find nice about whole sign houses, is that when there's an ingress it's reflected in everyone's chart ~ and everyone does seem to feel it in some way. Hitting a house cusp at 00 makes a lot of sense to me.

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  24. Michelle says:

    Hi CJ,

    Ah, that's so interesting that you're thinking about using whole signs too!

    I think that looking back at the timing of progressions is going to seal the deal for me on the use of whole signs.

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  25. cjwright says:

    Great point! I've got a 29 progressed Moon, and I can feel the shift already ~ sign and house. Ah well, the mystery is the mystery so … all aboard!

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  26. Anonymous says:

    I think it’s funny that you are reluctant to put your Moon in the 12th because you’re afraid it might “be putting you in the best light.” When to me, the 12th is the absolute WORST place you’d want to have any planet. LOL! But now onto my comments.

    I know an astrologer who rather than using any particular house system, sort of starts out with a basic Placidus-like set-up and then rectifies each and every cusp using events from the clients life. By the time the rectification is finished, the houses generally don’t resemble the Placidus houses that much.

    I once took about 5 or 6 of the main house systems and averaged out the positions of the house cusps for my chart and then drew up by hand what my chart would look like with the average cusps– I liked that chart but I don’t know any computer program that does that and I no longer have that hand-drawn chart. (Uranus in the 4th partile quincunx Sun, with Sun being the ruler of my 2nd — I move A LOT, and I don’t tend to hold on to my possessions despite being a Taurus… see, not all Tauruses are materialistic!)

    I think most people use Placidus because most astrology programs come with Placidus as the default house system. So they come to be comfortable seeing their chart with those houses. When you build a map of your identity, most people aren’t ready to accept that there can be multiple maps of the exact same territory that differ while being correct. It’s like different earth projection maps — Mercator Projections, etc — they’re all correct, but show the earth slightly differently, since the earth is a sphere and the map is flat. Similarly, the natal chart is a flat piece of paper which is trying to show a spherical area.

    For myself, I tend to use multiple house systems. I keep Whole Signs in mind, and when I use Whole Sign, I don’t use degree aspects, but Whole Sign aspects, as the Greeks did. (Any planet in Cancer is sextile to any planet in Taurus.) I’d love to use Koch Houses… it’d move Neptune far enough away from my 6th house cusp (remember, any planet within 5 degrees of a cusp is in that next house) that it would be in the 5th house and it’d give me a 1 degree Virgo 3rd house. I don’t think that really describes me, though. Using Placidus, Neptune is still in the 5th, but within 2 degrees of the 6th cusp, effectively making it a 6th house Neptune, very much describing my health problems, and also makes my 3rd house 26 Leo, and as I’m sure you know, I do love to be appreciated for my erudition and intelligence; on the other hand, my 9th house becomes Pisces instead of Aquarius, pretty well mapping how I dropped out of University (and how I behaved whilst there! haha)

    Overall, I think Whole Sign houses are important, but should be used in conjunction with another system.

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  27. Michelle says:

    When you build a map of your identity, most people aren’t ready to accept that there can be multiple maps of the exact same territory that differ while being correct.
    I like this- it’s perfect.

    I keep whole sign aspects in mind when I look at a chart too. I started with Koch. A Koch house system book was the first one I had when I started erecting charts (before the internet). My chart barely changes- I still have the first hand drawn charts I made- they’re identical to the computer charts I make now.

    Remember, any planet within 5 degrees of a cusp is in that next house
    Some people use different degrees. It becomes problematic too when a planet cuts it close. My Venus is 4 degrees 25′ from the 8th cusp.

    Overall, I think Whole Sign houses are important, but should be used in conjunction with another system.
    Lately I’ve been looking at both. I take a chart and view it through both house systems- Placidus and whole signs. Until I have a huge epiphany, I’ll probably continue to do it that way.

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  28. Austin says:

    Made the switch from Placidus to Whole Signs about 4 years ago, and underwent the same repositioning of my Moon from the 11th to the 12th, which I initially rebelled against, and then realized was vastly more accurate from almost every angle.

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  29. Michelle says:

    Oh yeah, one more thing…I’ve noticed lots of people on forums wanting to put their planets in the 12th because is unknown and “mysterious.” By “best light” what I mean is warping your chart to make people see the way you want them to see you rather than as you really are.

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    • Leah Boucher says:

      That makes sense to me, but perhaps that act in itself is a 12th house moon activity. Attempted prevention at manipulation is still manipulation ;)

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      • Michelle says:

        I think you’re just being snarky, but if having awareness of your behavior then attempting to modify unwanted behavior is manipulation, then maybe manipulation isn’t an entirely bad thing :)

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        • Leah Boucher says:

          Didn’t mean to sound snarky, sorry! Manipulation has a lot of connotations, but I didn’t mean it in a “bad” way. I said that because I have at times felt I had very pure intentions behind my actions but been misunderstood when they’re executed. Perhaps it’s a Pisces Descendent thing also.

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          • Michelle says:

            Maybe it is a Pisces descendant thing.

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  30. Empowering Astrology says:

    In all fairness, just to play devil’s advocate here, you do have Neptune in your 4th house, which is naturally the home of the Moon and Cancer. Plus Neptune is in a wide trine, at least by element, to your 12th house ruler (Sun) and your Moon.

    So my point is that there are Moon/Pisces themes that are in your chart even though, by Placidus, your Moon is in the 11th. I’m not saying that there isn’t something to whole signs. I think we should look at many house systems and look for reoccurring themes.

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  31. Michelle says:

    True, but you could also point out that my 11th house is ruled by Cancer which naturally gives it a Moon flavor even if my Moon wasn’t there.

    Playing devil’s advocate back :)
    Neptune in the 4th aspecting my Sun is not the same as the Moon in the 12th. The 4th represents a specific area of life. I don’t agree with Moon=Cancer=4th house. Signs, planets and houses each have distinct functions.

    I’m surprised you’d look at the whole sign aspect of Neptune trine Moon but not yet be skeptical of whole sign houses.

    I do agree with you, at least at this stage, we should look at many house systems for recurring themes.

    Here’s a good article about whole signs that friend passed on to me:
    http://cura.free.fr/quinq/02schmi.html

    Thanks for reading ;)

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  32. Empowering Astrology says:

    Ha. I like playing devil’s advocate. And to be honest, I don’t necessarily subscribe to Moon/4th house/Cancer approach either, just throwing that out there to stir the pot ;)

    It’s funny how house systems is probably the most divisive issue that astrologers talk about. I think they all work in some way — basing this on my chart at least. I personally go back and forth between Placidus and Porphyry, recently settling on Placidus after an astrologer read my chart and gave a pretty compelling argument for it. But since I have some stuff on cusps, both stories ring true. Yada yada yada.

    I’ll check out the article!

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  33. Jeremy Wood says:

    Nice article! Thoughtful questions. I have long felt that being detached from one house system, being willing to contemplate the changes which come about using different systems is nothing but positive. It is a good way to become more clear about what we do and do not WANT TO BELIEVE about ourselves. The first several years I was “into” astrology I did not know my true birth time. I knew it was in the signs of Aries or Taurus only. So for like 2 years I kept an interest going with a great deal of uncertainty, contemplation and reflection. So I have come to feel that there is much value in this process. Especially with a beginner whom may often have the tendency to want to say “I am this”…

    #
  34. Michelle says:

    I think so too. It’s a good idea to stay open to different systems, techniques and perceptions rather than tying yourself down to one method.

    Did you finally decide on an ascendant?

    Thank you for reading Jeremy :D

    #
  35. tina says:

    I switched to whole sign myself, about a year ago, but I also switched from Tropical to Sidereal, a few months after that, realizing it made so much more sense in that particular combination, as opposed to Tropical/Placidus.
    I know just what you mean about the ego trap..at first, I wouldn’t even allow myself to consider the possibility that Whole Sign and/or Sidereal would be more like me, because at first, it seemed too good to be true.
    Here’s the short of it, my chart from Tropical/Placidus to Sidereal/Whole Sign goes from Sun, Venus, Mercury, North Node in Pisces, in 6th and 7th houses, to all those in Aquarius, in the 7th.
    I have a Moon-Mars-Jupiter stellium in the 1st degree Gemini, in the 9th, that goes to Taurus, and the 10th house,
    Also, a Saturn-Uranus-Neptune stellium in Capricorn, in the 4th, that switches to Sag, and the 5th
    Plus, my Ascendant goes from Virgo to Leo.

    And like I said, to the ignorant eye, it seems like a giant step forward on the evolutionary ladder, but it sure as hell isn’t.
    First of all, all my planets and my Ascendant switch from Mutable to Fixed signs, which makes sooo much sense to me-I am the queen of stubbornness and pride, and I have struggled with the anxiety linked with change all my life. And, well, let’s not focus on the Zodiac any further..
    Second of all, that stellium moved from the 9th to the 10th would seem better, but it’s definitely not..I didn’t quite get that myself until I came across a site that delved into the dark side of the 10th house- few astrologers do in these short interpretations -and it very clearly stated that alongside the strong drive for achievement and recognition, the 10th also brings huge fear of failure, alongside a pushy, domineering mother who expects me to succeed(Moon in the 10th), as well as a father with a high status in the military, and, consequently, in society(Mars and Jupiter in the 10th).
    On top of it all, that heavy 7th house makes me too co-dependant for my own good, especially for the good of my potential waiting to be reached..
    Saturn in the 5th makes so much more sense than the 4th, as well…I am most definitely not at home with rules, discipline or hard work…
    And Uranus-Neptune in the 5th makes for weird hobbies and a love of drama, both of which are on my list.

    #
    • Michelle says:

      alongside the strong drive for achievement and recognition, the 10th also brings huge fear of failure, alongside a pushy, domineering mother who expects me to succeed Absolutely! My dad has the Sun exactly conjunct the MC in the 10th- he has a huge fear of failure and had an extremely domineering mother.

      I’m also considering the sidereal zodiac though I have a very difficult time accepting that I might be a Pisces with both Venus and Mercury in Pisces.

      Do you have a program that you use for charts?
      Thank you for sharing your experience tina :

      #
  36. TUU says:

    Uh, I wanted to comment on this sooner. Personally, it completely doesn’t work for me. The whole sign house system moves my personal planets, I mean EVERY one of them to other houses. They don’t like being misplaced :-) And I swear by these placements ;-)

    I might have another explanation for your Moon, but it’s 3 am…

    #
    • Michelle says:

      I want to hear the explanation- make sure to come back.

      I’m also considering the sidereal system, which completely displaces everything (obviously). I can’t wrap my head around having a Cancer Moon though. Seriously.

      #
      • TUU says:

        I think it’s very simple. It’s not that your Moon isn’t in the 11th house, it’s the fact that it’s overshadowed by other factors.
        With your Virgo rising and such strong 8th house, Leo Moon, especially in conjunction with Saturn, won’t play the first fiddle and won’t be so noticeable (no matter how much it would like to be, I’m sure).

        However, it might be caused by my general reflections (and doubts) concerning my own astro researches. After a couple of years of studying astrology sometimes I feel like I’m going backwards. Information on different techniques is so easily accessible… but personally I need to relearn how to weigh information.
        Honestly, right now I’m not able to look at my natal chart objectively and say what’s the most important. But I remember my Draconic placements, y’know?;)

        #
        • Michelle says:

          I know my Moon holds back because of the Saturn influence, and it gets complicated because Saturn in the 11th shows a loner type, and my Mars is on the cusp of 10-11 so I am interested in starting my own “clubs” of sorts, but I still feel my Moon is a little different.
          I really do know what you mean about not being able to look at your chart objectively. What I’m starting to do is just look at the facts, the plain facts (so Virgo rising!) The fact is that my mom has had to spend a great deal of her life in and out of hospitals because of my brother’s illness (Moon square Mercury conjunct Chiron). She is fun and warm and playful, but she’s also been incredibly burdened by caring for her children (Saturn in Cancer, ruler of the 5th, conjunct the Moon)- since it’s my chart, that’s the way I see it.

          #
  37. Zodiacal_macaw_1210 says:

    I’m mixed reviews about the Whole House system.

    With Venus (10th House), Jupiter (9th House) and Saturn (1st House), they represent more of the traits pictured according to this system than to my original (Venus – 12th, Jupiter – 10th and Saturn – 3rd).

    With the Sun (12th House), Moon (2nd House), Mercury (12th House), Uranus (1st House) and Neptune (2nd House), they present a mixture of both the house they were placed originally and where they’re placed according to this system (Sun – 1st, Moon – 3rd, Mercury – 1st, Uranus – 2nd, Neptune – 2nd). One the side note, my original Sun was on 9° off from my original Ascendant.

    But my Mars (12th House) and Pluto (11th House) represent themselves more in the house which they originally came than the one portrayed on this system, even though I feel that the 12th House Pluto does work for me too (probably one of my favorite positions along with 12th House Venus).

    #
    • Michelle says:

      I think whole signs is something to keep in mind. Whenever I look at a chart, I use Placidus but I mentally picture everything how it would look using whole signs. I think both systems give insight into a chart. Ultimately you have to decide which house system presents a more accurate picture of who you are, but I don’t see why you can’t dabble in a variety of house systems.

      #
      • Zodiacal_macaw_1210 says:

        I couldn’t agree with you more. I keep my mind open about the posibilities :)

        #
  38. Joyrjw says:

    I’m not sure if I like Whole Sign.
    Some of the placements make sense,but then again so do the placements in Koch/Equal house.
    My planets move all over the place when I switch house systems so I’m not sure what is what.:-)

    From Koch /Equal to Whole Sign my Moon 3 –> 4 Saturn 2nd/3rd—-> 3rd Pluto 4th —> 5th Uranus,Sun,Mars,Mercury,NN,Vertex 5th—->6th Neptune 6th—>7th Venus 7th—>8th Jupiter 11th—->12th Chiron 11th—->11th

    In Placidus I have Moon 3rd Saturn in 3rd Pluto 4th NN and Uranus 5th Sun,Mars,Mercury,Neptune 6th Venus 7th Jupiter 12th

    #
    • Michelle says:

      I think you just have to find the one that best describes who you are, and you are the final judge on that. Lately I’ve been reevaluating the charts of everyone I know and whole signs seems to be a closer match from my perspective.

      #
      • Anonymous says:

        I guess I’ve got to do more research huh? :-)
        I wonder if there can be more than one match for a person as far as house systems go?
        Thank you!

        #
        • Michelle says:

          I think so. It seem like every house system has its own insights to offer about a chart.

          #
          • Anonymous says:

            That makes lots of sense to me. Thank you:-)

            #
  39. dollsizedpistol says:

    I find it really interesting to check out other house systems, but ERGH, when I switch to whole signs, EVERYTHING changes except my moon and chiron. (plus my ascendant and descendant). SCARY.

    The thing that most throws me off there is that my 5 planets in the first changes to moon in first and 4 planets in 2nd. I’ve always really identified with having a first house stellium and seen this as the astrological representation of my strong drive for self-actualization… all my introspection and focusing on evolving myself from a young age. second house stellium doesn’t make sense to me.

    I’ve also always really related to my Jupiter being right in the last degree of the fourth, interpreted as a mix of fourth and fifth. Whole signs moves it all the way to the sixth!! Having a Jupiter and venus conjunction in the sixth?? huh?? doesn’t make sense to me.

    Hmmm everything I look at seems wrong. I don’t think whole signs is for me at all, but I’ll think about it more.

    #
    • Michelle says:

      I often find that people with packed 2nd houses have very strong survival instincts and they may have body issues- either an innate understanding of their body and its needs or a warped sense of their body and its needs. Can you relate to that?

      #
      • dollsizedpistol says:

        Strong survival instincts – can you give me an example? I’m not really sure I’ve ever been in a position to need my survival instincts to engage very strongly, and I’m not super focused on the basic food-water-shelter part of life like some people are.

        Body issues, yes. I’ve had body issues from an early age; no health problems, but disordered eating and stuff like that. It’s been a challenge in my life, but I wouldn’t expect it to be so significant that it would show that obviously in my chart. In general I’m not a very physically-focused person.

        #
        • Michelle says:

          Survival instincts…let’s say you’re watching a zombie apocalypse movie…do you begin to visualize everything you would do? Can you imagine every step you’d take to ensure your physical safety? Does your heart rate increase when you think about a scenario like that?

          #
  40. Leah-nine says:

    Everything but Mars changed houses for me… Just when I felt I had a grip on life, I had to investigate even further. Makes sense though, with Pluto in Scorpio in the THIRD house instead of the 2nd now.

    #
    • Michelle says:

      Just when I felt I had a grip on life
      Isn’t that the way?

      Why does Pluto in the 3rd feel like a better fit?

      #
      • Leah-nine says:

        Touché. Pluto in the third feels like a better fit because I tend to brood a lot and look for ways in which to destroy old thinking patterns to make way for new ones. Sometimes it can be to my own detriment though b/c PL squares Venus/Leo/12 and opposes Mars/Tau/9.

        I also think the mind is one of the sexiest parts of a person.

        #
  41. lauren says:

     Wow, I had no idea about whole signs. It has totally transformed my chart. 

    12 house moon — 1 house moon
    4 house pluto — 5 house pluto
    5 house mars — 6 house mars
    6 house neptune — 7 house neptune
    7 house sun — 8 house sun
    11 house chrion — 12 house chiron

    I have much pondering to do.

    #
    • Michelle says:

       Consider it. Some people don’t like how it changes their chart, but I think whole signs suits me better.

      #
      • Leah-Nine says:

         Sometimes what we don’t like is what we need to know the most. Is a different mathematical method used to determine each method? What criteria, other than favorable placements, do you think most astrologers (or just you if you prefer to speak solely for yourself) employ to determine which house method is the ‘best’? Why are their different methods???

        #
        • Michelle says:

          I don’t think it’s a matter of not “liking” the positions as much as whether they accurately describe your life as you see it. If it’s just a matter of not liking your traits you can change house systems, reduce or increase your orbs, throw a bunch of asteroids in and make your chart to taste.

          I hope that most astrologers are using the house system that gives them the most accurate results according to their clients’ perception of their life.

          Different astrologers can use different methods without there being a conflict.  We all have different ways of handling the information that comes into our lives and none of those systems is necessarily better than any of the others. I like to think that the right client will gravitate toward the astrologer that is using the right system to give the kind of information they want. The same goes with readers of a blog. People who read this blog hopefully like my way of dealing with information and the conclusions that I come to.

          An analogy: ten different people can exercise using ten different methods and still get great results. Whatever gives you the results you want is what is important – real, measurable, objectively observable results. There isn’t one right way to do anything.

          #
  42. meow says:

    I actually tried Sidereal with Whole Sign, and that started making sense to me, for a while..stuff like this, though, really makes me wanna give up on astrology…I kept going back and forth and trying different combinations..just dunno.

    Virtually everything changes in my chart when I switch to Whole Sign, except my Sun(7th house) and Pluto(3rd house).
    I really don’t like the fact that my Moon-Mars-Jupiter stellium goes from the 9th to the 10th..what would that make me? An ambitious b*tch?
    I never felt ambitious or all that driven to succeed in any particular area.

    Although I remember reading that one negative expression of an emphasized 10th house is huge fear of failure, which I definitely have had for a long time. Still do, kind of.
    Also, having parents in high places, or pretty ambitious..true for me.

    Anyway, aside from that, my Mercury, North Node, and Venus switch from 6th to 7th which makes me a people-pleaser..hate that. Venus is already conjunct DC, which is bad enough.

    Also, my Saturn-Uranus-Neptune stellium goes from the 4th to the 5th..this alone makes me stick to Placidus. Saturn and Neptune in the 4th always sounded a lot like me. Not sure about Uranus..lol. But that, to..I was one of the few in my class growing up who had a computer at home. Father had a drinking problem, was intuitive, emotionally/psychologically absent…and also cold and severe(Saturn).

    Have a shaky sense of identity(Neptune) and…love to just spend a lot of time indoors.

    #
    • Michelle says:

      Having a huge fear of failure is a 10th house thing. If your Moon, Mars and Jupiter moved into the 10th you’d have a lot of issues with your mom. Having those 3 in the 9th house would make you more of a scholar/academic/perennial student.

      #
  43. Sphinx says:

    So with Whole house system my 8th house is full!! Neptune and Moon in the beging and at the end Jupiter( was always there)…i can relate to that…any comments about Moon/Neptune conjunction at 8th house Sag…?

    #
    • Michelle says:

      Start by reading the Moon/Neptune post: http://astrofix.net/2010/06/23/moonneptune-brainstorm/. Also check out Sagittarius in the 8th house: http://astrofix.net/2010/02/27/sagittarius-through-the-houses/.  Thank you for stopping by, Sphinx.

      #
  44. Thomas Baker63 says:

    Good blog! I went to a salon, and the chart had the Sun, Jupiter, Mercury and Venus in the 8th House. However I noticed the degree of Mercury, which would indicate it was @ least on the cusp of 8-9th. Now I have had some overlapping, but I felt more comfortable whenever I went to college, like I felt @ home. Also I love studying no matter what the topic, especially astrology (Aquarius). Also, when I used one database for a birth chart, it would say Mercury was at the end of the 8th House (I think it had an astrick [spelling] stating that it would interpret that Mercury was in the 9th) But doing the whole sign said Mercury is in the 9th House. That made me feel comfy because it fits more! But do you think there might be overlapping elements with the 8th House too? jw:D

    #
    • Michelle says:

      I think it’s good to find a balance between observing astrology rules and using your own instinct. There could be overlapping elements with the 8th house but if the 9th house Mercury description makes you go, “AHA!” then that is the better fit and the one you might want to look to more often.

      #
  45. Tarek Moustafa says:

    Hello Michelle,

    Wonderful as you are always… I was thinking a lot about this matter recently
    And by shifting to whole sign system, Neptune in 1st become in 2nd…. And I dissolve money, my resources are not their simply, not clear… (Neptune Rx)

    Venus and mars from 5th to 6th…. And Yes I am a fierce competitor in work, and I made sex in the office many times.

    Sun and Jupiter in Gemini from 7th to 8th. … I cant recognize this.

    Saturn from 9th to 10th, and it can be here or there.

    Also I can’t figure out, transits to houses, and using Return charts in whole sign…

    What do you think… :) 

    #
    • Michelle says:

      I find with transits that using a house system like Placidus works better for timing events. Ditto on return charts.

      #
  46. Colleen says:

    I recently heard a lecture by Rob Hand in which he mentioned using whole sign houses. I recast a bunch of charts and I’m pretty much a convert — even though, like Demetra George, I’m going through something of an identity crisis, since 9/10 of my planets change houses!

    Like you, I have a Moon/Saturn conjunction, and instead of it straddling my 9th/10th house cusp, it now falls in my 11th. It’s a different way of looking at my hermit-like nature, for sure. Not sure how the Moon fits there, except when I remember the 11th is the house of hopes and aspirations, even though that’s sort of vague. By the way, Dana Gerhardt discusses how difficult it is to really describe the 11th house here: http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_dgelevhouse_e.htm

    She also talks about someone with the Moon and Saturn there. :)

    #
  47. Grand Water Trine says:

    Strongly considering changing to Sidereal Zodiac and Whole Sign Houses… So I’d like to thank you for proving why I should switch to Whole Sign Houses. :)

    I’m more comfortable with Topocentric houses, especially because of a compelling argument I found somewhere else on the web.

    However, I found my grand water trine has a better layout with the Whole Sign house system. My Jupiter Scorpio stays in the 2nd house in both Placidus and Whole Sign, but my Saturn Pisces is now in the 6th house and my Mercury Cancer is in the 10th House.

    Only Saturn and Mercury moved to the next house in my chart. With the Placidus house system, my Mercury was in the 9th and Saturn in the 5th, so it also bothered me that my Jupiter isn’t in the 1st house…

    So I’m pleased with this, because now my grand trine planets are now in all in the houses of moneymaking (not just Jupiter in a Earth house on its own).

    Jupiter Scorpio (2nd House)
    Saturn Pisces (6th House)
    Mercury Cancer (10th House)

    #
    • AstroFix says:

      A bit of a late reply, but every house system has something to offer. Lately I’ve been revisiting Koch, which is the first system I learned.

      #
  48. girl_from_stars says:

    I like this post. I am using usally no WHOLE SIGNS, but EQUAL SIGNS. You could try it too! I like equal signs, becose ASC is very important, especially in predictions. Btw, I use MC in equal sign chart too. What could I say, equal signs system is working better than Placidus system… For me interesting other people opinion about this.
    http://astrologersandra.weebly.com/

    #

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