Mars/Chiron Aspects

key knifeThe wounded masculine. Wounded assertive personality traits. Lack of self-assertiveness. Trying to reclaim male aspects of the personality. Sexual wounding. Inability to defend yourself. Inability to stand up for yourself. Confusing self-assertion with aggression. Fear of hurting others by standing up for yourself. Impaired desire nature. Impaired ability to go after what you want. Impaired ability to make your desires known. Inability to be direct. Passive-aggressive tendencies. Physical impairments. People who don’t know how to stop doing. Running yourself ragged. Busy, busy, busy.

Extreme sensitivity to expressions of violence, anger and force. Making a pact with yourself not to emulate people, or create situations in your life, that perpetuate violence. Afraid of confrontation. Problems with taking the stand necessary to separate from others and become an individual in your own right. Illness through lack of physical expression. Pent up energy and anger that leads to illness. Illness through not addressing sexual desires. Sexual illnesses. Accepting the limits of what you can, and cannot, do. Accepting that some things are beyond your ability to achieve. Accepting that you can’t always get what you want, and learning to deal with the feels of anger, resentment and frustration that accompany that acceptance. Having a hard time finding outlets for the expression of anger and rage in the mainstream world. Seeking alternative outlets for physical energy. Seeking alternative solutions for anger management.

Putting energy into helping others. Being actively involved in healing processes helps resolve anger issues. Embracing physical exercise and physical expression to release anger held in the body. Leading with depth, sensitivity and a holistic viewpoint. Leading with wisdom. Guiding others through experiences of anger and resentment. Becoming a mentor to people who have anger, abuse or self-assertion issues. Self-defense instructors. Anger-management counselors. Life coaches. Physical therapists. Fitness trainers. Seeing battles or competitions from a holistic viewpoint. Taking away more from competition than the “win”. Knowing that there’s more to do in life than “winning.” Healing by resolving your feelings about winning, war and conquest – what are you really trying to win, and why? Do you have something to prove? Who are you trying to prove it to?

The key to healing is learning to express anger, hostility and force in healthy, positive ways. The key to healing is going after what you really want, even if it pisses other people off. The key to healing is recognizing that you may be attracting people into your life who reflect your unexpressed rage. The key to healing is learning to assert yourself and become a force to be reckoned with. The key to healing is learning how to defend yourself. The key to healing is knowing the right measure of force in any situation.

kitty reading a bookThe key to healing is learning what it means to be a man. The key to healing is getting in touch with your masculine side. The key to healing is embracing the animus. The key to healing is developing a more holistic view of men and masculinity. The key to healing is resolving problems in relationships with men. The key to healing is helping people to get in touch with their anger. The key to healing is learning how to balance self-assertion with cooperation.

The key to healing is to understand why you do what you do – do you keep busy to avoid facing unacknowledged anger and resentment? The key to healing is to understand why you aren’t doing what you want to be doing – who are you afraid of offending by doing your own thing?

original chiron glyph

Original Chiron glyph. Click to read more.

Chiron is both a minor planet and a comet. It is located between Saturn and Uranus. Chiron takes about 50 years to make one complete cycle through all the signs of the zodiac. Chiron is in Libra for the shortest amount of time – 1.5 years; and in Aries the longest – about 8 years. Chiron’s symbol resembles a key.

People with Mars/Chiron aspects

  • John Wayne: Mars semisextile Chiron
  • Bruce Lee: Mars square Chiron
  • Al Pacino: Mars semisextile Chiron
  • Halle Berry: Mars trine Chiron
  • Gwen Stefani: Mars square Chiron
  • Lily Allen: Mars conjunct Chiron
  • Jean-Claude Van Damme: Mars sesquiquadrate Chiron
  • Marlon Brando: Mars square Chiron
  • Alanis Morissette: Mars square Chiron
  • Shania Twain: Mars sesquiquadrate Chiron
  • Tina Turner: Mars sesquiquadrate Chiron
  • Winston Churchill: Mars opposite Chiron

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137 Responses to “Mars/Chiron Aspects”

  1. amoureuse says:

    my dad has this… opposition… its true that he is having a hard time defendign himself or getting what he wants… and its frusrating to see a “weak” father… he is always try to be busy.. i thought its becase he loves hiswork.. but after reading this.. it might be  form of escape for him…   dont have tis aspect… this sound awful.. its hard not to be able to defend oneself..

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    • Michelle says:

      Does he talk about these feelings about not getting what he wants?

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      • amoureuse says:

        nope he never does… infact he is emotionally cold.. we only talk about things outside like current events and all… maybe because he has moon in capricorn… he always tells me to love my work.. i remember him telling me that he was able to get on top because of his hard work and dedication inhis work… he wasnt able to get an education before…  there’s something inside me thats angry towards him… due to his lack of affection towards me… he always doesnt have time.. he always wants to be busy.. he does things evenif its not important and make it an excuse that he is not available… this is one of the reasons why i need to go to a theraphy or say paint or sing… because if i dont, i feel like theres something inside me thats seething

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        • Michelle says:

          Is his Moon in aspect to Chiron too?

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          • amoureuse says:

            no.. but i have.. and its a square

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          • amoureuse says:

            what do u think about this mich.. and what does moon and chiron has to do with it.

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            • Michelle says:

              I was wondering how his Moon in Capricorn fit in and if there were any ‘wounding’ issues surrounding it. People with Moon in Capricorn tend to be workaholics; they love their work. Have you ever seen The Rachel Zoe Project? She has Virgo Sun, Virgo Venus and Capricorn Moon: she’s a workaholic.

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              • amoureuse says:

                just now, i googled it…. boy oh boy.. workaholic is an understatement for it, i think.. me thinks my dad uses it as a form of escape or like a drug.. he does keep himself busy even on weekdays.. and he yells at me if i forget my household chores… my dad finds it very hard to go on vacation… not sure why.. me i hate going to work… id rather stay at home, paint, write and cook… at lest i have freedom to do whatever i want. whenever i want

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                • Michelle says:

                  What sign is your Moon in? I remember you have Sun in Cancer.

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                  • amoureuse says:

                    yep i have sun in cancer and my moon is in aquarius…  today the moon is in capricorn nd i feel sooooo down.. but my dad? lol he’s mood is unussually friendly. he is alwaysbeen serios… this is a super bad day for me because i just found out that the guy from my grade school i was telling u about, he got back to his gf.. =(

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                    • Michelle says:

                      I’m sorry to hear that … but it seemed like things weren’t working out between you anyway, right?

                      Moon in Capricorn days are usually challenging for me. They create a grand cardinal cross in my chart.

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                    • amoureuse says:

                      its a yes and a no… anyway, i just want to shrug it off.. i got of more important things to think about than to waste my energyy on him or evn my lovelife.. family issues that is…

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  2. tatiana.larina says:

    As usual, a very interesting post.  I’m an Aries woman with Aries Ascendant and my Mars in Aquarius in 11th is in exact sextile to Chiron in Aries in 1st (Chiron is also in a loose conjunction with my Ascendant).  Avoiding confrontation and sweeping my emotions under the rug are the traits I identify with, I am also not very assertive and relations with men are problematic, to say the least.  Which brings me to the question I meant to ask you for some time: do you believe in the traditional division of aspects into smooth (trines, sextiles) and hard?  Because this sextile does not seem very smooth for me…

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    • Michelle says:

      I think the confusion lies in terms like “smooth” and “easy” for the trine and sextile. I like “unimpeded” to describe the action of the trine. An unimpeded flow of energy may not be a good thing – like a dam that’s broken, with water gushing out, unimpeded, destroying everything in its path because there’s nothing to stop it. 

      From The Inner Sky by Steven Forrest:

      Sextiles produce excitation. They are intense, colorful, dynamic. Both planets are stimulated and enlivened. Both are vitalized. When two planets are joined by a sextile, it is as if they were a pair of teenagers falling in love for the first time. There is magic. There is humor. There is high energy. But there is little restfulness or stability. …

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  3. E.T. says:

    I have the opposition: Mars in Scorpio in the 2nd house “vs” Chiron in Taurus in the 8th house…

    I definitely find it difficult to assert myself… I´m also extremely sensitive to aggression and to any kind of violence. Great post.

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    • Michelle says:

      Thanks, E.T.

      I like the use of “vs” when describing the opposition – it usually fits the feeling of the planets involved.

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      • Anonymous says:

        what does it mean when you have many signs the are in opposition to the house they are manifested in?
        this is not related to this post but i cant find an answer.
        i have:

        sun     gemini       8th house
        moon sagittarius 3rd house
        mer    taurus        8th house
        ven     cancer       10 house
        mar    leo             11 house
        jup      leo              11 house
        sat      aquarius    5th house
        ura      capricorn   4th house
        nep     capricorn   4th house
        plu      scorpio      2nd house

        then i have 

        chiron       cancer      10th house
        n.node      capricorn 4th house
        s.node      cancer       10th house

        i have more oppositions but all (except my sun in the 8th house)
        im confused, i always do feel stuck in expressing myself though

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        • Michelle says:

          Anyone with Libra, Scorpio or Virgo rising can end up with opposite signs on houses. There is probably something else in your chart that shows why you feel stuck.

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          • Anonymous says:

            yup, i have libra rising;) thank you

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  4. mirrorghost says:

    interesting post! i just noticed that my bf has the trine, and at first i didn’t think this sounded like him, but when i saw the part “the key is to getting in touch with your anger”, that struck me, because i think i have been a bit of a catalyst for him doing so. though chiron is not in aspect to mars in my own chart. and the part about more to life than winning…he is good about reminding me of that when we get into arguments, and that we love each other and need to get back to the “baseline” as he calls it, which i think reminds me that fights truly aren’t about winning. but i tend to forget this, and get caught up in arguing, because i am an aries with aries merc/venus (3rd house) square mars, and sometimes i forget things like that when i’m angry!

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    • Michelle says:

      Yeah, arguments are not about winning, especially when you’re in a relationship – they should be about coming to a resolution or compromise (definitely Venus’s territory). 

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      • mirrorghost says:

        yes, obviously i know that, and i can only speak for myself. i was just trying to say that i think for people with strong mars and/or many fiery planets may get caught up in the moment more, and it helps to have someone remind us of that. we may know it rationally, but that warrior thing takes over ;)

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      • Anonymous says:

        I totally agree and that one awesome thing that has come out of this. Like, I really know this in my heart! But it sucks when you are with or against (lol) someone who does not see it that way.

        It can feel like you’re being ran over!

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        • billow says:

          I love “run over” for this aspect.  From my perspective anyway.

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  5. Anonymous says:

    how does this happen for Mars in Cancer in a man? Or Mars in Aquarius?

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    • Michelle says:

      Hi borsboom,

      It depends. It depends on what type of aspect is formed, and how Mars fits into the rest of the chart. A man’s Mars sign shows how he expresses that basic Mars energy. So, Cancer is caring, insular, private and clannish while Aquarius would be logical, friendly, detached and group-oriented.

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  6. Anonymous says:

    how is this for Mars in Aquarius in a man?

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  7. Anonymous says:

    how is this for a man with Mars in Aquarius?

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  8. Klfgioj09tu says:

    Got the square. Chiron in Cancer (7th house), Mars in Aries (3rd).

    What can I say. When I was very young I used to fight a lot. I remember I used to get in fight only with 1 girl, my best friend, we pulled at each others hair and would compete who will let go first. Fights with boys however were more violent and I would punch, bite, kick with brute force until it’s time for lunch, or grown-up’s are coming, or until both of us would be so tired that we would just lie on the ground and rest. But the older I got, the harder it was to really punch someone either verbally or physically. I started to get extra-sensitive about any aggression directed my way. Even when some kids would call me fat or stupid, and I would open my mouth to trash back – I never got one iota of satisfaction from it. = Basically I would just act the anger and arrogance, whilst inside I felt both pain and boredom. Competing lost it’s taste completely when I turned 13, but it was gradually decomposing for me for years. If someone starts to mess with me now – most of the times I just completely ignore it, if I know the only basis of conflict is pure self-affirmation (still feel a bit hurt and confused though). 
    I don’t avoid real confrontations however, when I feel the anger beneath is fully justified – I prefer to resolve it. I don’t do passive-aggressive, because I kind of see it like energy drainage from another person to me. So when the strike comes I try to find the right words to express my feelings or just calm myself down. I have noticed however that “blind with rage” (kind of) is very common phenomenon out there: person sort of gets high on energy and it’s useful to remind them that their arrows reach a human being, not the phantom opponent in their heads. 
    I also really hate it when I see wounds on other people, I get this gut punch instantly (helping with them: cleaning cuts, etc, helps a lot). 
    Masculinity.. Well, I really like to feel strong :D (Jupiter square Mars, conj Chiron) Relationships with men are difficult, but each case is individual, so it’s hard to find one pattern…I guess I love “angry” men (women too though). When there is hurt and anger, and taste for energy highs, but tightly entwined with wisdom and self-control – I understand it and I like it. I self-assert myself plenty… mostly in my head though :D While dancing and dancing. 
    I just sit and figure out what pisses me off and try out new things how to deal and work it out. Sometimes it’s quite fun aspect, when you get words that will affect, but not push… which happens almost never. I just need to work more on myself. 
    So, that’s the raw image. 

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    • Michelle says:

      Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Klfjioj09tu. I wonder what changed (astrologically) to make you less interested in being violent. Have you looked at your transits and progressions leading up to age 13?

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      • EG says:

        No, thank you for your wonderful blog. Here I get in this crazy self-indulgent mood.. x) Can’t stop talking. 
        Over the years leading to 13, I had a lot of things coming and going, so I can’t really tell what triggered it. It’s more like the work has been silently boiling inside me and gradually the results started to be visible over time. Transits happening after I turned 13, over that year:
        1. Transit Pluto trined my natal Mars.
        2. Pluto in Quincunx to Chiron.
        3. Pluto square Moon.
        4. Chiron square Mars, Chiron over Saturn. 
        5. North Node over Pluto. 
        As I remember now that year and couple after were complete anguish. But back to Chiron/Mars, I still occasionally have the “Chiron Chaos” situations in my life, but I have long accepted that’s how my life would be. 
        When you try to defend yourself over what you feel like is justified anger – you feel like a clown. Like you’re overreacting, or you come to an instant halt just in middle of an argument – and all your righteous fire goes PUFF! and nowhere to be found. Lol, these situations are inevitable I discover, so instead of wounding in self-pity I try to be constructive and get to the point – what I did wrong, what I perceived wrong, how should I treat these kind of situations (people) next time – and it helps. Be more sensitive, be more brave. Be less ego. Try not to let inner confusion mess with your sense of what’s right. (my most important rule)

        Ended up in a ridiculous position? Suck it up. Sucking it up turned up to be even more disharmonious to what was happening? Yep, that’s Mars/Chiron.

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        • Anonymous says:

          Not to butt in your convo but I feel I’m at where you were right now. Becoming more sensitive, being more brave. having less ego. And of course “trying not to let inner confusion mess with your sense of what’s right.”… and stuff. lol

          How did you take those 1st steeps? I know what I have to do but I just don’t see it for myself right now and I’m not coming to the realization that I may need to accept certain things.

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          • EG says:

            How did I took my first steps… Boy. I don’t really have a solution how to. =
            I think before I voiced in words those directions consciously, I started to act on them in little things… and the more I would let go of things from my old ways, the more accepting I would become towards things that hurt me. 
            I discovered that in many situations and with many people that my own reactions triggered things to go down faster and noisier than they could. But my reaction would actually just make me see things at a wider angle, or really, it’s the sudden uncomfortable wider angle feeling left me at a chaos without any guideline how to act, and if I would react by forcing situation… more confusion would insure. 
            You either go deep into yourself with a big flag that says “Honesty is the best policy” or you stay in a deadlock. Deadlocks can’t be tricked to open, and wounds – like being aware of what’s wrong, they will sting, I guess they meant to sting. 
            Pardon the abstraction, but the Chiron gives a key for a deadlock that is already there when your direction is growth. And the feelings of hurt, unfairness, confusion, inadequacy are keys, clues, for you to follow them inside yourself and figure out the puzzle of who you are (at least a little). That’s how I see it, heavy IMHO.
            For me, sometimes natural reaction to these events was to expect opponent admitting he’s wrong with crowd cheering at the background, or something along the lines, but even when my desires were like that – somehow I knew it won’t bring me satisfaction and the answer actually is hidden elsewhere. For me, again :), realization that I have to accept certain things was already there, deep down, I just needed to have enough control over myself to do it. 
            Woof, hope that helps.

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            • Anonymous says:

              thank you for your words, klfgioj09tu. they do help. :)
              but yea man, its kinda crazy to say how it goes down in my head but sometimes i went into situations expecting to “win;” that they would see how wrong they were and the we would ‘hug it out’ and shit would be wonderful finally. LMAO. Oh Lord.

              ” For me, again :), realization that I have to accept certain things was
              already there, deep down, I just needed to have enough control over
              myself to do it.”
              It almost sounds too easy but I guess its one of the thing just ‘come to’.

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              • EG says:

                “sometimes i went into situations expecting to “win;” that they would see how wrong they were and the we would ‘hug it out’ and shit would be wonderful finally.”Oh God, I tried it once. I thought it would be therapeutic for everyone. The next day everything just blew right at my face… Never again. 

                “It almost sounds too easy but I guess its one of the thing just ‘come to’.”
                You know, it was actually really hard :D I knew it was what I should do, but everything inside me went WHAT? NO! You KID? I’m too big for that! Lol. (I think it’s my Moon, it has only trines and sextiles to it and I keep thinking my emotions are sacred)

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                • billow says:

                  “expecting to win”  .  .  .   who the heck coined that phrase, if first you don’t succeed try try again.  : p

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                  • EG says:

                    Try different things, try different self. 
                    Of course if it’s not some Pluto transit/lesson.. then just accept what comes. :p

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                    • billow says:

                      ” : p”  .  .  .  sometimes it sucks to be human.  : )

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        • Michelle says:

          Pluto square Moon and North Node conjunct Pluto point to emotional anguish as a necessary part of your journey.

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          • Anonymous says:

            “North Node conjunct Pluto point to emotional anguish as a necessary part of your journey.”

            See, I have Pluto square NN and I thought this was the answer but I was not sure. At least I know I’m getting better at this. lol
            But what does it mean if you have both NN sq. Pluto and Sun (loosely; 8°) conjunct NN (in Aquarius no less) at the same time?

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          • EG says:

            Oh, it’s the transits. Transit Pluto was squaring my moon.. and transit North Node conjunct Pluto. You didn’t read them as natal.. did you? :D 
            Am I confusing things? 

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            • Michelle says:

              No, I was reading it just as you wrote it again here. 

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              • EG says:

                Oh, sorry, sorry. 

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  9. Anonymous says:

    Mars in Leo in 11th house & Chiron in Cancer in 10th house.
    Mine semi-sextile.

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  10. Albert says:

    Wonderful
    article, really wonderful. Your beautifully expressed ideas reflect
    absolutely my past struggle with mind sufferings around
    “masculinity”. I’ve had to create from nothing my male side, and
    it was a matter of surviving around my 20s to 30s. In fact my
    no-violence behavior is a clear way of being of myself and it is so
    stronger that lots of people can’t understand it. Besides I am
    Pisces….ejem!!!

    I’ve
    Chiron conj. With Venus, and other contacts with Marts, Moon, Pluto,
    Uranus, Neptuno, Jupiter. Reading your wording about Chiron I
    realized that Chiron isn’t a minor planet in my chart!!!! On the
    contrary, it’s a higher influence and now, I may say that it has been
    and is a great fortune despite all the past pain.

    I
    really in love with your web/blog, posts and stuff. It’s amazing!
    Seriously speaking!

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    • Michelle says:

      Thank you for reading, Albert. Which sign and house is your Chiron in?

      I always look at Chiron when looking at anyone’s chart. It’s placement is very telling about the issues that cause people pain in their life.

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      • Albert says:

        First at all, sorry for the preceding typing (I don’t know what happen, “that” was not what I had in mind, anyway…).

        For me Chiron is the star discovery of this last two years. After a lot of years I’ve learned that Chiron is my most important “planet”, amazing!!! For sure!!!

        I agree with u, from now I am going to check first where the hell is Chrion!!!! ja, ja, ja!!! I forgot: I have a contact Chrion/Sun, it is unbeatable (Mercury/Saturn are the only planets with no contact). And Saturn in I house (just in case I needed more challenges in my “funny” path…)

        I am Chrionist with legs and arms living in Earth without notice it!!!

        I am Piscis and Chiron in XII and…. Aries!!!!

        I have been learning and studying my chart all my life and now I have the key-planet: I am in heaven….

        Reading Chiron/Sun almost a little eyedrop run away from his/her sacred spot.

        #
  11. Rocioincera says:

    I have so many aspects related to Chiron! With Mars, I have a trine. Quincux with Sun, Venus & Saturn. And quadrate with my True North. I´ve always felt lost. Really like a paria. Very selfish, calculating, though thinking of me as grandiose. Mhhhh!

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    • Michelle says:

      Which sign and house is your Chiron in?

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  12. Rocioincera says:

    Oh! forgot to say that I have this Chiron in my 8th house. In between of it, is Part of Fortune and Lillith is also there… from where I am, i would not know how to be where I would like to be (of which I am not certain and don´t know if I deserve), though, thankful because al last I am somehow fruitful (and not in my shell any more… after bankruptcy). Being like ill, seems true to me. Like being inner paralytic. Like a zombie sometines, though very brilliant and workaholic, if you understand paradoxes! Mhhhh!

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    • Michelle says:

      Now I see the house :)

      My Chiron is also in the 8th house, along with Black Moon Lilith. When I’m really out of touch with myself, I will actually dream about zombies.

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      • Rocioincera says:

        So!  Like a soul-chiron-mate!

        Regarding violence, I have been violent. I get angry as fire with injustice. I have wanted to act like Robin Hood, but he is a diplomat. As an arian sign (cancer ascendant), I would “fight” and discuss about justice through my childhood, as an adolescent and now that I am an adult. Pain, has always been within me and I have always defended my self like a tiger. My North Node in in 5th house, in Scorpio, and I just would not know how to reach this contentment state, where I am suposed to be a diplomat.

        Of course, I breath a lot, breath and breath very much (though, I smoke), because I sure know by experience that nagging as I do and fighting -even when I am usually right, rightgeous as I am and have conducted my life- just takes the devil out of others, which end hurting me deeply.

        My younger sister was ill -congenital- and I was like her mother. She died in my arms when she passed away. And I always had the sense that I was superior (they liked bull fights, box) and I was so just. Always a victim from “them” who were always mean and abusive.

        It WAS very hard (took me many, many years) to bring contact to my self. I was always armored and in my shell, feeling pain (like twilight between earth and hell). And at the same time, so very spiritual, even as a baby.

        Not easy to deal for me with Chiron energies, indeed!

        Clairvoyant people always say to me that I am a New Era Master (I find it hard to master my self!). And from where I am, I don´t know how to get where my Mission is (Pluto trines Sun and Venus).

        Feel pain also when I read that we, with Chiron in 8th, will have hard times to love to feel loved and to keep a good bank acct. (I tend to let others to keep my money and end up poor… and a victim, again).

        I don´t really know how to have power and do have struggles with authorities… Life seemed to be hard for me, really (i ´m not kidding), though I can see how much I nagg!

        I feel happy to have someone that sure understands!!! This profound pain. Thank God I can breath and not act this Chiron eternal maladie!

        Kindest regards!

        Rín.

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    • Di says:

      Hi Rocioincera I find your comment interesting because I was just looking at the chart of a friend who has 8th house Gemini Chiron. He complains of not know who he is, doesn’t know how to get in touch with himself, does not know what his core is. Yet he is very successful and driven and focused. He has Mars conj MC, Sun in Leo and Stellium in Cancer. Very interesting. 

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      • Rocioincera says:

        Hi Di!

        Yes! The same happens to me. My Chiron is in my 8th, in Aquarius. At the same time, and in spite of this endless pain, I am always industrious, very creative and work hard. I don´t really know how to understand all this paradoxes (end up without love, don´t really know how to love even though I am very, very kind… and end up in bankruptcy, which just think how dangerous is, having children of my own!).

        Yes! This identity thing. I feel  very hard to “feel” or to “know” that I belong. I dont´ really feel that I have been on Earth ever. I say that I am landing just now!

        I found it very useful to write (maybe, with Chiron in Gemini, hard!). I had to end on codependent program (12 Steps), and there, I learned to write down my feelings, starting with: “I feel…” and then went on. Being in this Program was life-saving for a while. And have always been in meditations, in some learning related to magic, and have always tried to take care of myself.

        My parents would not assume that I had this pain issue and always thought that i was just “hard”.  And I have made so many enemies for being perfectionist… not easy to live a life… I hope I make my self understandable and that this gemini-8th-house-man finds his way through life!

        See you ´round, Di!

        Rín.

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      • Michelle says:

        I wonder if Rocioincera and your friend have their Sun in aspect to Neptune.

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      • billow says:

        Would opposing 2nd house sag, which I have, give value to the “search for truth” iteself?  I find myself following leads and going to all sorts of places I would never think of.  Being one thing or another is out of my scope.  I never know where I am going for sure.  I never really know where I am, but when I move on somewhere down the line I know where I was.  I am thinking that I am on a forever journey that does not stop, it just keeps moving.  It is not mine to own anything tangible forever.  So core has to be something within?  I have NN sag, so I may be jaded about this.  Getting okay with this has been tough.  No title, no mask, to hide behind.

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  13. Robin Joy Dore says:

    I have mars scorpio 5th h. 2 degrees applying chiron Rx Aries 10th h. Equal house

    Mars is part of a 4 planet stellium.

    I’ve always had trouble asserting myself and I’ve always had trouble dealing with confrontation. As time has progressed I’m learning how to handle both better. It seems that I’m odds with myself as far as that goes.

    Thumbsup on the description here! :-)

    #
    • Michelle says:

      Thanks, Robin :)

      #
      • Robin Joy Dore says:

        You’re Welcome!
        I’m sorry, I forgot to put what aspect it’s making…it’s been fixed now ^_^

        #
      • Robin Joy Dore says:

        You’re Welcome!
        I’m sorry, I forgot to put what aspect it’s making…it’s been fixed now ^_^

        #
        • Michelle says:

          I figured it was a quincunx by the signs involved :)

          #
          • Robin Joy Dore says:

            Oh Good! ^_^

            #
  14. Low Gale Haze says:

    It makes sense with my life. And unhappily, makes me feel so miserable. I have a square between them (9°ari mars in the 4th squaring 6°can chiron in the 7th) and it’s one of the aspects I hate the most in my chart. It makes me feel so weak and idiot, and whenever I blow up with someone, I feel as the worst person on earth ’cause my point was just useless and spoiled and not worth of an explosion. I am always wrong.

    #
    • Michelle says:

      Don’t be so hard on yourself, LGH.

      #
        • billow says:

          You rock and we all know it.  : )

          #
    • Robin Joy Dore says:

      I hope I’m not out of line in saying this,but I had to say something.  I agree with Michelle, you shouldn’t be so hard on yourself.  We all make mistakes, people are only human ^_^ and the positive side of making mistakes is that we can use them to learn from. 

       Ok. I said my two cents. :-)

      #
  15. LB says:

    “Accepting the limits of what you can, and cannot, do.  Accepting that some things are beyond your ability to achieve.  Accepting that you can’t always get what you want, and learning to deal with the feelings of anger, resentment and frustration that accompany that acceptance.  Having a hard time finding outlets for the expression of anger and rage in the mainstream world.”

    All of that sums it up for me when my P. Chiron in the 8th was exactly square my P. Chiron in the 4th (and formed an exact T-Square with P. Jupiter in the 2nd).  Right when the aspect was exact, my dad suddenly passed away and my mom had a psychotic break associated with her dementia.  I had lots of responsibilities and encountered lots of resistance as I was pulled in several different competing directions all at the same time.  All of my resources (material and otherwise) got called into play, and I remember feeling  like I had to  “man up” because there wasn’t anyone else who could do it.  I didn’t feel very *womanly*, if you know what I mean.:(

    I was *very* busy and very assertive, but even then a lot of my efforts felt wasted.  I was pretty resentful about some of the injustices I encountered and that I wasn’t able to remedy – it was very difficult for me to accept..  I was never really sure how much I should pursue versus how much to let go; my challenges seemed endless.  The situation went on for quite a few years and I’m still processing all of the lessons.  wish I’d been a bit wiser back then.

    The aspect was exact during my BM Lilith Return (also in the 8th) and I was inwardly angry and extremely frustrated much of the time, although I did accomplish a great deal.  Naturally, my natal Mars/Pluto square was involved too. 

    Great post, Michelle – and I’m loving the comments.  Your way of wording the combination of energies is very enlightening.

    #
    • LB says:

      Typo – meant to write . . . when P. MARS in the 8th was exactly square P. Chiron in the 4th.  Sorry for the confusion. :)

      #
      • Michelle says:

        I’m sorry to hear this, LB.

        It makes me not look forward to some of my upcoming transits and progressions. Not to be a downer ;)

        #
        • LB says:

          Sorry if it caused you (or anyone else) undue concern.  After I wrote all that, I worried that it might freak someone out, which it shouldn’t, since the way each chart manifests is so unique.  It has been pretty amazing though, to realize how many aspects were made to so much of my chart (natal and progressed), all at the same time (part of T. Pluto through the 4th, joining my natal Saturn placed there).  The same thing happened during my Chiron Return a few years later.  Chiron is parallel my Sun and NN after all.  I’ve been forced to *grow*.

          My dad lived life large, so his death, although sudden, wasn’t completely unexpected.  He died the way he lived and ultimately, I think his death served a greater purpose, as did my mom’s dementia – there have been rewards along with the lessons.  Anyway, BM Lilith sits exactly opposite my Sun and is part of all those exact natal oppositions going on between my 2nd and 8th. And because my natal Mars is retrograde, progressed Mars has exactly squaring my natal Chiron for a long time – it will stay within a degree for several more years.  I’m still learning – this post actually helped clarify a few things, so thanks, Michelle.

          I hope you don’t worry too much. :)  I try not to focus on future progressions – what’s the point, you know?  Most of the time, things turn out completely different than whatever it is I imagine anyway.  Like my progressed Saturn/Venus conjunction for instance.  Not so bad at all. . .  Usually, there are a few asteroids lurking about doing wonderful things we aren’t even aware of.

          #
          • Michelle says:

            Good point about the asteroids.

            I’d rather that you share your experiences than hold back because of worrywarts (like me ; ) ).

            #
            • LB says:

              Ha!  I’m prone to being a worrywart too – Virgo rising anyone?.  One of the main reasons I share so much in comments is because I hope other budding astrologers/astrology buffs can learn from them.  Each person’s experience is unique, yet there are always certain similarities as well.  I love reading about people’s experiences of various astrological energies. 

              That’s one of the great things about your site – how people share.  Your descriptions always make it easier to understand how the energies work together.  Believe it or not, up until recently, I don’t think I’d given my progressed Chiron/Mars square much thought.  Or maybe I just didn’t properly understand its significance.

              #
          • billow says:

            LOL on freaking others out.  When things get weird on me, I resort to saying “you are freaking me out.”  We all have a choice.  It’s important mental hygiene.  I don’t need to hang around, stay until i’m driven into lunacy, or retaliate.  Am I getting old and lazy?  It’s just there is too much to enjoy in life and only so much gas left in the tank.

            #
        • billow says:

          Lemons to lemonade my friend, lemons to lemonade.  Of course, does pluto give me any choice.

          #
  16. Anonymous says:

    Hey Michelle, I’m just wondering — do you count T-squares if they have Chiron  in them? If so, I’ve got an example of a famous person with a T-square that has Mars/Chiron for you.

    #
    • Michelle says:

      Yes, I’d count a t-square with Chiron. Who’s the celeb?

      #
      • Anonymous says:

        Rahm Emanuel.
        He compulsively exercises (he trains for triathlons), he doesn’t sleep much, and he’s known for his  rage.  Need I say more?

        #
        • Michelle says:

          Lucky for him he has Libra rising with Venus in Libra in the 1st house – there’s a good amount of charm to smooth things over.

          #
  17. Anonymous says:

    “Problems with taking the stand necessary to
    separate from others and become an individual in your own right.”

     I see it in my life right now and it hurts because I knew this about myself, even without astrology, and I still feel I can’t do anything. Then I get more mad at myself because I know that kind of  low self esteem is not helping in this situation. Even more it sucks because I know, they *know* on some level that I can’t properly  stand up for myself and are just dismissing my concerns; taking advantage.

    ANYWAY, this is one of the closet aspects in my chart (2nd house; Cap Mars opposition 8th house; Cancer Chrion) I’m going to re-read this so I can truly absorb it… and stuff. lol

    Sometimes I versatile between being very staunch about what I feel and, like it says above, being aggressive (which I now I wrong) and trying to be understanding about who they are and why the act the way they do. Being open and, you know, letting them know I hurting.  I end up, i think, caught up end their mess and just feeling like shit. is this a good description of the Mars opposition Chrion (2nd house; Cap Mars opposition 8th house; Cancer Chrion)?

    #
    • Alter says:

      I think what applies most strongly is the 2nd and 8th house axis, (the opposition is sometimes more than often puts a person in direct balance, in a very dynamic way, but its an ongoing process and yet easier to really do something big with these energies) The 2nd house really talks about resources, value and self esteem, and then the 8th, what OTHERS value, and their self esteem..and their resources.. this is a very tricky one. Think about the relationship between your natal Moon Saturn and other placements and how they relate, and it may improve upon the view of the self, or at least give you a feeling of self respect, which also stems from the respect you also give others.

      I get the impression self esteem issues are not about undervaluing the self at times..but sometimes forgetting that other people are also hurt and you can’t fix them. (Chiron in the 8th in Cancer suggests that hurt people often make other people feel bad about themselves…where as Mars in the 2nd in Capricorn, can usually sort things out for themselves without much quandary about their own intrinsic value of what their labour is, or their self esteem, and work often too hard to undercut the value of the things they may need, at least the ruler-ship of Saturn tends to restrict that value for the self which is unavoidably necessary, and that “Saturn hurts too”, a kind of important.. idea..

      The vibrations of Chiron and Mars are definitely showing that there is a conflict, obviously, and when I see oppositions, I don’t really think its about problems or solutions but about allowing both sides equal time and measure to express their energies.

      #
      • Michelle says:

        “… when I see oppositions, I don’t really think its about problems or solutions but about allowing both sides equal time and measure to express their energies.”I like that.

        #
      • Anonymous says:

        Girl, what? lol Maybe I’m just not ready to see this clearly or maybe I’m not believing I’m really understanding, but could you clarify?

        “[..] self esteem issues are not about undervaluing the self at times..
        but sometimes forgetting that other people are also hurt and you can’t fix them.”
        Do you mean it would be more postive for me to ‘ignore’ others hurt on some level; accepting somethings can’t be helped? Become stronger is just walking on?

        “Mars in the 2nd in Capricorn [...], and work often too hard to undercut the
        value of the things they may need.”
        I don’t houner my needs/wants? Say, for example, I want to take a class. I may express that but I try to play it off like it means nothing? I wont express my full desire for it?
        *”Think about the relationship between your natal Moon Saturn and other
        placements and how they relate, and it may improve upon the view of the
        self, or at least give you a feeling of self respect, which also stems
        from the respect you also give others.”This the part I keep reading over and over.  See, I can’t remember my moon/Saturn placements, but i know i don’t like them. That I feel they are kinda just there. Isn’t anything “cute” about them in the least, lol. Lot’s of sqs. to the Moon (one tirne to Mercury tho, lol) Saturn conjuncts tightly to my Venus and to Neptune at 7° . I have a Saturn sextile w/ Pluto I like; I know that a top-down change is at least possible. Both of them have aspects to Chrion.thanks.

        #
        • Alter says:

          When I mentioned the self esteem issues of Chiron/Mars in opposition combined with the 8th/2nd house its prescription in a workable sense would be, don’t give anyone any more or any less than you would give yourself, and also the reverse as a hard fast rule. Because this is an issue of balance.. and it also means that there is an emotional feeling that not only allows others to project their weakness on to you, but also their perception of inequality, which has to be balanced out.

          With the state of your Saturn it sounds to me, that sometimes self issues and values become nebulous and this makes it very difficult to navigate that dynamic between Chiron and Mars because of the lack of firmness of boundaries…Saturn would usually give that, but conjunct Neptune and Venus, although lovely, in my mind, its not a very easy thing to know if you push too hard or not enough or if you just give up much of your self to be harmonic, or what you may perceive to be “spiritual”. But I think that your Saturn sounds quite lovely actually. Certainly its a positive force for art, music and solid material acquisitions but sometimes because of the confusion there you may give away much of what you own.. or do many things for free or just simply let go of things and give them to people you love.. and sometimes with Saturn as the ruler of the 2nd house, you are often limited in your earning, but Mars in such a great placement makes for a driving force for self promotion in a very modest way, a very down to earth way.. an executive worker kind of way..

          If you accept that some people can’t be helped, but that you can give them compassion, I think it keeps you from being victimized. Its the same advice I give my mother, when someone is hurting, they tend to manipulate you, so you got to get them out of their environment or wait until they are rational. Its just difficult if its someone close to you. Also the obvious strength you have should not make you believe that others are actually weaker than yourself. (Cancer 8th house) It seems that their resources may just be “different”.

          The example of the taking a class, for yourself, you may really want to, but then may sacrifice your goals for trying not to seem too determined, or perhaps someone in your life mentions they want you to help them out on the same schedule as your class, and so, maybe, you give up the class and shrug.. not really letting others know how much it may have meant to you. Even with work, if there is something and they really NEED you on a certain day, you may be tempted to give up something because THEY need you.

          I’ve got the Cancerian 2nd house.. and I have to remember these things too, that sometimes I too give up things I really want, and even need, sometimes because I feel that I owe it to someone, but its usually a family member.. and I usually drop allot of things instead of making others wait. Although I have been known to try to do both.. which doesn’t do me any good, a lesson I need to learn! (Moon, in 4th in Virgo conjunct Pluto) :P

          I hope that I’ve clarified things and have not made a total wreak of it all! :)

          #
          • Michelle says:

            The 2nd/8th polarity is about give and take – what you give and what you get.

            #
          • Anonymous says:

            Yes, you have VERY much clarified things. lol Although I think *I* wasn’t clear
            because the ruler of my 2nd house is Sagittarius. (My Jupiter is in Cancer
            and the 8th house so I don’t think there is much change in what you
            said, anyway.)

            In any event, one thing about me is that I’m very self-contained. I have my
            own values and truths and I’m finding as long as I check in with myself, making
            sure that I’m ‘right’ with myself, I think I’ll be alright. It’s still going to
            be nebulous – as you put it – but I guess I’ll get better with time.

            I’ve been thinking about my life recently, and what I see my chief themes
            are going to be (thus far) and balance is a big one. If I’m going to be the
            person I want to be, it’s important. I want to give, continue being nice and
            aware, but I also have things I want to do, and I know people who normally accomplish
            those things have a healthy sized ego and just does their thing. Somewhere
            along the line though I forgot I have a Libra Moon so this shit was going to come
            up anyway! Although this seems in some kind of weird over-under way, IDK. I
            need my needs.

            Thank you for your words again. :)

            #
    • Michelle says:

      That’s a great description of your opposition.

      #
      • Anonymous says:

        Thank you! I’m trying over here. lol

        #
  18. Alter says:

    I’ve got a natal Chrion square Mars, probably one of the tightest aspects of my chart.. and transits to this right now, with Uranus, and Pluto, are seriously making me relive a certain amount of pain, whether this be to my inability to stand up for myself.. I can not say. Under this summer I was forced to do something I seriously did not want to do, nor felt it was the government of another country to force me to do. And yet.. I was threatened by not only delay but police interest as well as my family, who didn’t want me to be stranded in another country while riots where going on in police custody.

    I figured if saying no to some security measure was so very dangerous, or if I was some kind of “terrorist” suspect, that certainly, police questioning would put me in the clear, but other people were more scared with my non-compliance than others.. what is scary is how many people were selected to go through an untested machine RANDOMLY without any grounds to do so… when I clearly thought that there would or should be some kind of logic, such as a metal detector, or such.. and the having no CHOICE or not fly home. I had this huge conflict, I was not going to do it, I would hitchhike back through Manchester (and the rioting that was going on there) to somewhere I could take a ferryboat and completely get out of there.. but they hammered me on an emotional level, they forced me and they threatened me.. had it been my child, definitely not going home by plane, but then it was ME.. and I didn’t stand up for myself as firmly as I should have.

    And as I said I would just leave, to not give anyone any time for their non-flexible shit.. governmental crap or what have you to use me as a lab rat, I was in a point of observation, its not just me, there are people who are too willing to go through these flipping x-rays because they don’t want any trouble, in spite of the fact they are not safe… and this version, which has two beams, is not even tested in model.

    ( I knew some information before, but my husband didn’t know until after the fact that they select people without logic and reason, and I did not want to go if I would even be subjected to it.. and walked right into this crap.. because he said.. “but certainly they don’t x-ray everyone… that would be silly..” obviously he got a wake up call, because he didn’t expect as an observer, to see so many people randomly forced compliantly through the x-ray machines with no qualms. )

    Totally untested machines that are killing the people who are operating them, who believe themselves to be “safe”… while there are studies and evidence to the contrary. And then they played “good cop, bad cop” with me, for about 2 hours… and when the idea of police involvement came in, I told them to inform my family… instead they were crying and begging me to do this so we could just get home. I think I would have had more luck with armed gunmen in a hostage situation.. it would have been more along my comfort zone rather than getting my family involved emotionally.

    I wouldn’t let a doctor x-ray me, (or make me take my clothes off) I haven’t had a dental x-ray in years, because my dentist knows how I felt about this crap and yet, I let people who have these untested and unethical machines virtually strip search me because I am such a dangerous character, and could possibly have “bombs in my breasts” or for whatever reason.. and they do not “pat” down.. because in the UK, they thought it was too intrusive for the staff and the victim..

    They just want to put people through baggage x-rays as fast as possible and imitate some kind of  “safety”, but yet it was this summer, some airline passengers from the UK, went to Norway and had brought long knives on the plane with them.. with all these new and fantastic added security efforts!

    Plus why should they care, since they should not stop me from LEAVING their country? They should be kissing me goodbye and saying don’t come back, not forcing me to stay if I don’t comply to their “Dog and Pony” security show.

    I know things are corrupt also– I’ve read loads of reports about the propaganda concerning security, its not relevant to use such machines because they are in violation of many international laws plus, there is no concrete testing concerning about the amount of radiation they expose people to. They use strange enacted laws by governmental sanction for these machines not to be “illegal” and yet, this is actually in violation of a UK law against “voyeurism” which is sequentially something that hold more penalty than some of the laws for more violent offenses, violent threats of bodily harm only seem to be seriously taken if one speaks it to a law officer or a security geek…

    I thought it was really strange.. and I just have to get this anger out by making a parody of the event in the language of cartoons, but you can see the Chiron Square Mars in action!  Mars in Cancer, 11th house ruler in the 1st house, Chiron in the 10th house, in Aries..(I’m still out about the ruler-ship or co ruler-ship of Chiron but both Virgo and Sag seems good for Chiron)

    (As a person who has been a nuclear activist for before Chernobyl I’ve studied radiation.. (obviously Fukushima is hazardous to all of us!) … low dose radiation from medical machines is also a hazard to the health of the general population, studies confirm this.. these machines tested higher than medical machines and they are unlicensed and need not conform to any such standards for some corrupt reason.. I guess like the CT scans, until they find out its 100 to 1000 times a chest x-ray, they will still deny they do any harm either while they compare their machines to cosmic rays out in nature which we live with every day.  

    Plus there is are two reasons we as the general public are not allowed to see the images these machines create of the skin surface of the bodies being scanned- we would be offended by the graphic detail AND we would be able to correlate the amount of radiation it takes to create such a detailed image, and its much more than what they are saying! Worst of all, the political “leaders” who are the most psychotic and dangerous humans on the planet today are EXEMPT, they voted it in, but are EXEMPT, talk about “opt out” :P)

    ***
    My husband has Chiron sextile Mars; my son has Chiron conjunct Mars (conjunct Vertex) 5th house.

    #
    • Michelle says:

      I don’t know what to say about the X-rays. I’ve been “randomly” selected for full body scan and search 3 times. I have Chiron quintile Mars.

      #
      • Alter says:

        the problem is, they could be using something more trustworthy and accurate, if there was a problem, a solution is ready and available but not used enough: its called A DOG..

        They don’t have these machines in Sweden (the laws don’t work this way here at this time) and yet I’m sure someone is going to put out some more press about people who have bombs implanted in them..  not to mention, its your body and your territory.. you have to defend it.. no one else will. (I’m guessing this is also a bit Mars/Chrion isn’t it?)

        I need not remind you or others that you must value your right to privacy of person. I just saw a story that Max Keiser just pointed out about a woman in New Mexico https://rt.com/usa/news/cavity-search-drug-cruces-947/

        The general gist of the story was that a drug mule dealer turned informant singled her out and lied.. she got a cavity search and although found “not guilty” she still had to pay 1000 dollars for the “pleasure” of being searched.

        Chiron is the teacher of the “outcast” warriors.. I think because he was the illegitimate son of Saturn.. it speaks of both hardship and heroics.. not the same kind of heroism of Mars, which can be utterly brutal, but that of the “illegitimate sons of the establishment” Mars is the son of Jupiter and Juno, and utterly embedded in the establishment although even his parents thought him blood thirsty. I think this is where two warriors on two separate sides must either join or collide in battle!

        #
      • Alter says:

        the problem is, they could be using something more trustworthy and accurate, if there was a problem, a solution is ready and available but not used enough: its called A DOG..

        They don’t have these machines in Sweden (the laws don’t work this way here at this time) and yet I’m sure someone is going to put out some more press about people who have bombs implanted in them..  not to mention, its your body and your territory.. you have to defend it.. no one else will. (I’m guessing this is also a bit Mars/Chrion isn’t it?)

        I need not remind you or others that you must value your right to privacy of person. I just saw a story that Max Keiser just pointed out about a woman in New Mexico https://rt.com/usa/news/cavity-search-drug-cruces-947/

        The general gist of the story was that a drug mule dealer turned informant singled her out and lied.. she got a cavity search and although found “not guilty” she still had to pay 1000 dollars for the “pleasure” of being searched.

        Chiron is the teacher of the “outcast” warriors.. I think because he was the illegitimate son of Saturn.. it speaks of both hardship and heroics.. not the same kind of heroism of Mars, which can be utterly brutal, but that of the “illegitimate sons of the establishment” Mars is the son of Jupiter and Juno, and utterly embedded in the establishment although even his parents thought him blood thirsty. I think this is where two warriors on two separate sides must either join or collide in battle!

        #
    • EG says:

      That’s a really unpleasant incident. 

      #
      • Alter says:

        yeah, and I’m attempting to use it as just a direct observation point rather than allowing for this situation to make me angry and not do anything with this anger.

        It was not pleasant, but what was most scary is just watching how people go and not question anything.. this is why its bad for everyone, the more people want to be in this “get off my back” zone.. the more people get their rights almost invisibly taken. You with Mars in Aries would instinctively feel that too.

        #
        • billow says:

          Yeahhhhh for questions.   Always questions.  I was questioning, more like thinking about something I had read and was discussing it with a coworker.  She replied, don’t you think the scientists have that all under control.   Uh, know.  We always have to question less we become sheep.  Nothing wrong with the sheep, they just get that wrap cuz they follow the herd. 

          #
          • Alter says:

            Hej Billow!

            I don’t think Pluto 4th house (didn’t you have Pluto conjunct IC?) people let BS pass by without a good inspection.. and we don’t like being manipulated!

            Questions are exactly what they are for, you need to have them or we collectively don’t learn a thing. And it has been from my personal experience that the generation that has come down the way after myself, have not even known that there were any regulations and laws preventing people from using non-certified non-medical x-rays because of the threat they were to public health.

            When things don’t add up, you got to dig a bit more.. and they still don’t add up, they don’t release the specs of the machines (due to security reasons) and they don’t release scanner images to the public because we can calculate exactly the amount of radiation from a scan if we SEE the images that they say are not details, where as the protypes are detailed enough to be lovingly called “porno scanners”.

            Scientists and doctors still claim, they don’t know what causes cancer, or heart disease but speculate wildly and condemn people who get results at cures outside of the establishment.  For me, having an astrophysicist in my family, makes me more familiar with the “utter failings of so called science” and because there are unknowns, we need to be very careful, even in the established sciences, results can be skewed just to get wished results.

            The darkest thing is convincing those who work with these scanners that they are safe and hear them attempt to explain why they are safe with false comparisons they don’t even realize that they are doing. They have no idea of the concept of cosmic rays, background radiation or the true amount of x-ray released from a mammogram or a chest x-ray. If these machines do as they are advertised, the energy that is absorbed by the skin is probably more than a mammogram which is accepted by most of the medical establishment as 30 times the amount of a chest x-ray. This is bad.

            And they have the nerve to make people have faith in them? The entire figures about risks are even based off of insurance actuary tables..  comparing contracting cancer or other problems from the scanners to being blown up on a plane.. which is probably not as high as they would like us all to believe. They make money off of the fear of the people, like a mafia, and everyone involved from extra security and the manufactures and military contractors, they get a cut, once again not unlike the mafia. ;)

            Sorry, got a little carried away there.. but even the sheep don’t need to accept the wolves as being a norm of life, I think this is important if you want to live in the “get off my back” zone.

            #
            • billow says:

              “get off my back” is another good one.

              #
    • Anonymous says:

      Wow. I’m happy that you were able to get out of the riots, but I’m not sure what to say about the X-ray’s. I mean, it is quite shady.

      #
      • Alter says:

        I would have gone through Greater Manchester, and look for transport to Norwich to a ferryboat back home to Sweden via Bergen Norway,  if left to my own devices.. but I was emotionally broken down, with help from my family who was also emotionally manipulated by the idea of me making my way back home and by me being kept indefinitely in police custody.

        I think I should have dug in harder.. I should have let them leave without me. But I have to confess I got to see somethings that I probably wouldn’t have seen otherwise. I have to place the blame squarely on myself for giving in to the manipulation.. but they are professionals at emotional manipulation, otherwise they wouldn’t be able to get so many people to accept things without question.

        #
  19. Anonymous says:

    Great and inspiring article as usual, with so many deep and precise descriptions! :)

    I have a sextile between Mars (Pisces, 5th house) and Chiron (Taurus, 8th house), and I do relate strongly to some of the above interpretations…

    Especially these words are very true for me: “Lack of self-assertiveness… Inability to defend yourself. Inability to stand up for yourself. Confusing self-assertion with aggression. Fear of hurting others by standing up for yourself… Impaired ability to go after what you want. Impaired ability to make your desires known. Inability to be direct. Passive-aggressive tendencies.”   X(

    Even despite the fact that sextile is actually a harmonious aspect, I do feel uncomfortable and frustrated considering these issues of impaired self-assertion, and it’s one of the most difficult things for me to go directly after what I want and to defend my viewpoints, wishes and decisions! :o(
    At times I’m even feeling guilty when I want to do something “just for myself” – I perceive it almost as shameless, maybe due to some deeply rooted inferiority complex (though any logical reasons for this complex are still unknown to me)…

    Yes, I’m really worried that my “egoistical” actions could offend other people! :-O

    And I’m terribly afraid of upsetting and bringing out of balance my next ones by following some of my goals, so most of the time, I prefer to suppress certain needs and aspirations and I really hate myself and the others afterwards for my own indecisiveness and weakness…  :-/

    However, I suppose that my Mars-Chiron sextile alone can’t be blamed for this problem – for I also have a Mars-Neptune square with a very similar and probably much more dramatic effect, and Mars in Pisces itself is not especially assertive either…

    It’s also interesting that despite being that afraid of any direct confrontation and tryng to avoid it whenever possible, at times I’m still paradoxically confrontational and even prone to violence… Usually I manage to repress my negative emotions for quite a while, but sooner or later, the “point of no return” arrives and all the boiling anger and aggression finally come out, completely blown out of proportion!

    Fortunately, with the time I’ve made a lot of positive progress and now I’m gradually learning to follow my desires in a more direct and much healthier way – and as the result of it, my inner passive-aggressiveness has also become weaker! :)  

    So it’s indeed some slow healing process and a part of my personal evolution…
    Though, it’s still much easier for me to fight for other people’s rights, not my own…
    When I’m longing to defend and to protect someone else, I get the necessary courage and braveness all of a sudden and have little problems speaking up for other people’s needs!

    Besides that, I love helping my friends to deal with their deep emotional wounds caused by repressed anger and rage, and to support them in healing those issues – so in this case, the archetype of the Wounded Healer who can help others much better than himself works perfectly! :)

    #
    • LB says:

      I relate to a lot of your comment, Le_Verseau, especially the part about how it’s much easier for you to act courageously on behalf of other people’s rights, and also the way you’re able to help others deal with their issues.  I think that’s part of how Chiron helps us to grow and eventually accept those things beyond our control – through compassionate action.  My Mars is much more effective when it’s focused on others and is used to heal, not harm. :)  I feel better too.

      The idea that by acting assertively we’ll naturally get what we’re asking for (or what’s fair) is such an illusion.  Sometimes we do and then again, sometimes we don’t.  Mars in Pisces seems similar to a retrograde Mars (which is what I have) in that often the solutions to problems require a more internal/spiritual adjustment when (and if) our healthy efforts at self-assertion fail to produce the desired results.  Which is not to say we should remain in unhealthy situations any longer than we need to.       

      #
      • Anonymous says:

        Hi LB, 

        and thank you for your response!

        You’re right – it’s an illusion to believe that acting assertively will always help us to reach our goals… Sometimes, a subtler, more passive and indirect approach works better, it all depends on concrete life situations and on our innate character traits…  
        I’m just willing to get rid of these exaggerated feelings of guilt and anxiety and to finally dare to do all the things I’m dreaming of!

        And yes, Mars in Pisces does its best being inspired by some higher spiritual cause, often bordering on self-sacrifice…
        I don’t have any retrograde personal planets, so I can’t feel their effects on my own skin, but I guess there’s indeed some parallel between a Pisces Mars and a retrograde Mars!

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        • LB says:

          Hi Le_Verseau :) – I agree about those exaggerated feelings of guilt (been there, done that) and I also know how self-sacrificing and underappreciated Mars in Pisces can be.  I’m married to someone with that placement and he’s one of the most giving people I’ve ever met..  From time to time, I have to remind him to dream his own dreams (I think he forgets) and also not to indulge me when I’m occasionally tempted to fall back into my less than healthy patterns. 

          It’s great that you know what you want.  Being self-aware is half the battle.  Good luck going after your dreams!

          #
          • Anonymous says:

            Hello again LB, thanks for your encouraging words! :o)

            It’s great that your spouse is capable of truly unconditional giving,  and you’re lucky to have such a wonderful person by your side!
             

            But the eternal problem of people with Pisces influence is this feeling of being unworthy of love and all the good things in life! So learning to receive appreciation, help and support without any inadequate feeling of guilt is one of the main challenges for them!
              
            Actually, I can’t say that I’m that underappreciated – I do tend to forget about myself and to act altruistically for some important causes, or in the state of emergencies, but on the daily basis I still have a lot of healthy egoism (thanks to my Moon in Aries with that more or less secret “me first” attitude)! =)

            So the whole thing is rather contradictive, but maybe because the ruler of my Aries Moon is still Mars in Pisces in aspect to Chiron, I rarely manage to fulfill my innermost inner ambitions and dreams… 

            But knowing the problem is the first step towards solving it! ;-)

            Greetings from Germany,
            Le_Verseau

            >;o)

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    • Anonymous says:

      “Yes, I’m really worried that my “egoistical” actions could offend other people! :-O”

      YESSSS! lol.
      I have this thing: I never want to be one of those people who do not give a fuck (… in that way).  I’ve been around people who have made it all about them, run roughshod over others, just didn’t care and they were the kinda person you knew ego was so big there was very little chance of any real self-reflection. They’d never get it — if only for them self. And that’s a great trait. But I’ve clearly taken it too far.

      I think I’m going to hurt them (and in some cases I *knew* I was), and it stopped me. I feel (unnecessarily) like a bitch. I just feel like I’m going to make them mad I stop because… I don’t ever want to feel like I willfully made some one feel bad.

      “When I’m longing to defend and to protect someone else, I get the
      necessary courage and braveness all of a sudden and have little problems
      speaking up for other people’s needs!”
      I relate.

      #
  20. billow says:

    This piece makes me itchy.  Found that I have a separating semi square by 2 degrees.  3 and 4th of course.  Jeez I am anxious for neptune to get straight again and move on out away from IC.  And uranus which opposes my natal chiron,  is sequiquadrate mars.  Okay Tompkins, what do you say?  “Semi squares tend to force some kind of release.” 

    Is it safe to say that mars chiron is not comfortable with discord?  I had a bad habit of running to the rescue, trying to fix the situation.  E-x-h-a-u-s-t-i-n-g.  Particuarly confusing is when someone is angering, whining, manipulating or just outright pushing at high decibels in my face.  There really is nothing I can do for severe cases.  I can’t work their process for them, I don’t have what they want.  How many times have I heard you are just like my mother, my sister, my last girlfriend.  Yay, maybe and they couldn’t give you what you want, so why are you trying to get that from me.  I don’t have it either.  Go find who does.  (I have been guilty of this too)

    I am learning to better assess situations.  Some are just way beyond my pay scale, if you know what I mean.  Part of knowing my limits.  If I don’t want poison ivy lesions, I don’t enter the patch. 

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    • billow says:

      PS About what I find to be hard cases.  I don’t think they want a solution.  They just want to fight.  Oh bother.

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    • Michelle says:

      What sign are your Mars and Chiron, billow?

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      • billow says:

        Pisces and aquarius respectively.  

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        • Michelle says:

          Also, I am trying to get rid of the man’s silhouette as default avatar – I have a support ticket in. Just in case anyone was wondering :)

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          • billow says:

            I was actually more concerned about the maniacal looking robot that appeared.  I thought maybe you were having a bad day.

            By the way I love the cat pic.  Awesome.  Makes me laugh over and over again.

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            • Michelle says:

              I thought this post could use some levity at the bottom. I like the kitty too :)

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              • billow says:

                It’s as brilliant as that 2nd house cancer cat which really worked with msfulleroller’s caption.  I am thinking of using it as a greeting card.  Is that legal?  No sale or anything.  Just something a friend would like.

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    • MsFullroller says:

      Billow you know I am LOVIN’ this!! I need to paste the entire reply on a small laminate card for my wallet to pull out when backed into a corner.

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  21. MsFullroller says:

    Before I forget…the cat pic is too funny!

    I don’t have this as a natal aspect but progressed Mars in Taurus is sextile natal Chiron in Pisces. Especially identifying  with the extreme sensitivity to violence. Heck, I can’t even watch fiction horror movies. I’m surprised that I also relate to a lot of this post not having the natal aspect.

    DH has the opposition Mars in Gemini/Chiron in Sag. From your descriptions, you have hit the bulls-eye Michelle!  

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  22. Kai says:

    Lack of self-assertiveness. Trying to reclaim male aspects of the
    personality. Sexual wounding. Inability to defend yourself. Inability to
    stand up for yourself. Confusing self-assertion with aggression. Wow, this is all so true I have Mars in Gemini conjunct Chiron in Gemini. And I’ve thought that my lack of assertiveness came from my Neptune or Cancer influences but so much of this rings true. I lack the ability to assert myself in most situations and “confusing self-assertion with aggression” that’s just bulls-eye right there. Thankfully I have lots of Aries influences to balance all this out. Let me also add that fighting for something or even aiming for a goal is something spiritual for Mars/Chiron. Several websites mentioned thats Mars/Chiron people represent the “Sacred Warrior” archetype and they’re bullheaded but not afraid to defend friends and family. Frankly, I don’t know how it came from lack of self-assertiveness to being bull-headed. I do associate strongly with Joan of Arc for some reason – pretty sure she has this aspect if we had her birthchart.

    #
    • LB says:

      Hi Kai – There actually is a birthchart up for Joan of Arc. It’s on Astro.com, in their Databank.  I know, because I’ve looked it up in the past – Joan of Arc is one of the very few historical figures whom I greatly admire.  If the information is correct,  she would’ve had Chiron square Mars. 

      #
      • Kai says:

        I also happened to look that up… I imagined her to be an Aries or atleast an Aries Moon though. I never expected her to be Capricorn/Pisces, they prolly made a mistake with her Moon.

        Mars/Chiron people can’t just fight for anything, we can’t just be mindlessly violent. In fact, we feel invalidated when we retaliate or enact revenge against anyone. We have to have a cause to fight for, someone to protect and a land to defend.  :D

        #
        • LB says:

          “Mars/Chiron people can’t just fight for anything, we can’t just be mindlessly violent.  In fact, we feel invalidated when we retaliate or enact revenge against anyone.  We have to have a cause to fight for, someone to protect and a land to defend.”

          Yes Kai, – that’s it *exactly*.  Not only that, but I feel my spiritual power to do good is significantly diminished whenever I give in to such notions, which is why I try not to ever go there.   My natal Pluto/Mars aspects, Scorpio planets, and 8th house Aries placements are all challenged by the need to redirect this energy.

          My natal Mars is retrograde, so I’ve lived with the progressed aspect of Mars square Chiron for a long time now.  It’s definitely served a purpose in my life.

          #
          • Kai says:

            I have Sun/Pluto and South Node in Scorpio so I understand where your coming from. It’s all too easy for us to give in to our dark side and disregard our nobles selves. But I very well know that this is the challenge we have to face. And once answered builds our character.

            #
    • Michelle says:

      I like the idea that simply having a goal is a spiritual thing for Mars/Chiron.

      The lack of assertiveness is the wounded state, the bullheadedness is most likely the ‘whole’ state.

      #
  23. Dan Herman says:

    Hi all. Michelle, you have an awesome blog here.  I have this particular aspect, 3 degrees Aries  Chiron, with 5 degrees Aries Mars, both in the 9th house, Mars rulership.  Saturn is also in the 9th near the MC.    I do feel a lack of masculinity..feeling a bit like both genders at times, definitely sensitive to violence (and with my Scorp Moon always sensing what’s really going on).  Yes, I often do fear hurting others or even speaking for others when I want to say something.  I work best when I’m alone and I am centered.  I feared for years speaking up and out. Now I have less of that fear but I’m very choosy on when I do.  Sometimes I get confused about saying what I truly mean to say.  I’ve avoided abuse issues in my life beyond that which I grew up with.  I am doing some work in the ‘new age’ field and this is helping me as I know it does for others. I like to be a therapist and suggest solutions…learning from my trauma and giving back my knowledge.   Something I want to do for a living but not sure how. Not working at this time.    Inteersting that I might attract people who have anger issues. I back away from people who rage a lot., even in relationships. I fear confrontation in that arena.  
     I recently had to learn defending myself from someone who seems very passive/aggressive. I took spiritual methods to do this..and so far it’s working.  (that ‘sacred warrior’ mentality).  What I really resonate with is the last line…….I don’t want to offend anyone…but I get confused in knowing what I want and knowing just what to do to get what I want.  I want people to appreciate me…. tho I’m learning too that I can’t please everyone…and I often draw boundaries against less receptive people. That’s how I cope. 

    #
    • Michelle says:

      Very interesting, Dan. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience.

      #
  24. Andy030 says:

    I have this aspect in square.I also have Chiron opposing Moon/Saturn, conjunct Venus, sextile Mercury/Jupiter and semi-squaring Neptune/Uranus.

    And all this is extremely frustrating!!!

    #
    • Michelle says:

      Why is it frustrating? How do you experience these combinations?

      #
  25. Lilmoon says:

    I read this through. I myself don’t have this aspect but a friend of mine does and I’m seeing sings of her not wanting to express negative emotions, though I first thought it was just her Libra Sun. She has also told that she has never had an orgasm (she’s on her thirties) even though she has had many many partners (her Venus and Mars also conjunct Uranus in Scorpio). She says she doesn’t know why she has never had an orgasm but I’m thinking it might have some connection to Chiron opposition Mars? I feel so sorry for her, and want to help her! I perfectly understand how important real passion is (I have Pluto conjunct Mars in Scorpio)!.

    Her Uranus opposes Chiron too. I have no idea how that would manifest – maybe as a fear of loosing freedom if she gives herself fully to her partner and lets herself go and enjoy?

    #
    • Michelle says:


      She says she doesn’t know why she has never had an orgasm but I’m thinking it might have some connection to Chiron opposition Mars? 

      That’s a good possibility, especially if Saturn is also involved.

      I like your thoughts on Chiron/Uranus – the fear of losing her freedom. Her Pluto conjunct Mars in Scorpio could also point to a deep fear of losing control to release sexual tension.

      #
      • Lilmoon says:

        She doesn’t have Pluto/Mars conjunction, I do. :) She has only Mars (and also Venus) conjuncting Uranus. If I remember right, her Virgo Saturn sextiles Uranus and Mars.. Saturn also squares Neptune in Sag. Then she has Pluto conjuncting Mercury and Sun in Libra.

        She’s rightnow in a relationship that has pretty much nothing more than a friendship anymore. It has been only two years. She has a crush on somebody else but she’s too tired of always breaking up and starting again since it seems to her that her interest vanishes quite quickly (Uranus conj. Venus, I suppose). It’s very tiring for her. She wants to have love that lasts.. But she can’t. She decides to stick to her current relationship. 

        Why’s Uranus/Venus like that? What’s the catch? Why does she have to fall in love just to let go again? And since Chiron (Taurus) is opposing Uranus, I’m thinking it might be that when the relationship gets too “safe” or traditional in a sense, casual, she needs to get out? Again, safe relationship a thread for her independence? Though she’s not always the one leaving, she has been left too.

        #
        • Michelle says:

          Oops :) That’s what happens when I answer comments at 5am.

          Venus/Uranus needs space for one thing. They might want to have a close, intimate relationship … but then again, they don’t. Chiron in Taurus opposing Uranus could point to a fear of getting stuck in a rut, or of things becoming too comfortable.

          #
          • Lilmoon says:

            But what could be solution for this? Obviously there needs to be balance.

            #
            • Michelle says:

              I couldn’t possibly tell you without seeing her whole chart. 

              #
  26. LB says:

    “And because my natal Mars is retrograde, progressed Mars has exactly
    squaring my natal Chiron for a long time – it will stay within a degree
    for several more years.”

    When I wrote that a while back, I don’t know if I realized how my progressed Mars is not only squaring natal Chiron, but also forms an exact square with progressed Uranus, *and* sits at the EXACT midpoint of my natal Chiron/Uranus opposition (6th/12th).

    I had a terrible dream about this aspect last night and how it was affecting my relationship with the world and some of the people and situations I’ve been encountering.  I think a lot of it has to do with my frustration at not being able to master certain aspects of myself and knowing they exist even though I generally choose not to act on them.  It’s as if I’m at this point in my life where all I can do is patiently go with the flow and use this time of waiting to develop my internal resources and gifts without giving in to rage and/or self-pity.  Often when I try to take practical steps towards creating something of lasting value outside of myself (progressed Mars in Taurus), something unexpected happens and I’m forced to adjust or relinquish my material goals – at least for the time being.  

    This progressed T-Square takes place in my progressed 10th, 7th and 4th, and for the past 2 years my attempts at creating a stable living environment and career haven’t exactly turned out as I would have liked, although I’ve also had some absolutely amazing -and seemingly fated- experiences during this same period of time.  I’m not nearly as afraid as I used to be.  And I’m also more fearless about reaching out and sharing with others when I’m called to do so, without being afraid of what people will think.

    I discovered something interesting (I *hope* you’ll appreciate this, Michelle), which is that in my progressed Draconic chart, my progressed Mars falls in my progressed 1st house and is *exactly* conjunct my natal Sun and progressed Ascendant – all in Libra and all forming a biquintile with my natal Mars and quintile with my natal Uranus.  In the Draconic, my progressed Chiron is within a degree of joining my progressed MC, in the last degree of Cancer.  It’s pretty wild how it all fits together.

    It was good to see you posting again recently.  We’ve missed you. :)

    #
  27. Cmm2108 says:

    I have this.. I am a almost thirty year old woman who have her mars conj her asc in sag 1st house exact and mars opp chiron. My husband tells me I actually like a 15 year boy trying to become a man. He has said this to me more than once. I can not stand up for myself for the life of me. I had exactly what I wanted and was so afraid that id piss everyone off I sucked it up and kinda miserable in life at the moment. Not to mention the other hard aspects I have. Iam wondering who I upset in my past life. I totally feel like a martian. I almost feel like I am a joke. I just hope soneday this will all make sense.

    #
    • Michelle says:

      Well, I think mars moves into sag shortly… perhaps you can use that energy to practice getting in touch with your own mars in sag.

      #
  28. Elizabeth says:

    LB, you must have been born around the same time as myself. I also have mars retrograde. Progressed, it is now squaring natal chiron, and opposing progressed jupiter and squaring progressed uranus and has slowed to a stop. Presently the progressed moon is joining in to create a progressed grand square while conjuncting progressed asc. and conjuncting natal moon. I relate to what you wrote very well as well as to the article Michelle wrote. I do not know how to express what I am experiencing adequately and also feel that I am in waiting mode. It is so internal, intense and humorless. You are not alone.

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  29. rashee says:

    Passive-aggressive tendencies – this is so true, also in the same vein – sacrificial ambition- is what chiron mars are to me

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  30. Blueberry says:

    “Extreme sensitivity to expressions of violence, anger and force. Making a pact with yourself not to emulate people, or create situations in your life, that perpetuate violence. ”

    I’ve decided to become a pacifist, despite my intense, bottled fury toward men.
    I daydream about beating men into a bloody sobbing mess and it’s driving me insane. I lust for it. For that power. But I despise abuse of living things to a crippling extent. I actually went through with it and took a 500 page hard-cover book and cracked one of my male classmates on the head with it, but then I got physically ill and lay in bed with a 38.5 C fever for a week straight. It’s maddening.

    #